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| Jason
47th Post
 
Rare Customer
 
|  "Re(1):What's Capcom's problem???"
, posted Mon 21 Apr 07:35:
meh, the same could be said of video games in general, in that they are displaying a much larger, but no less apparent downward arc in difficulty. This probably has to do with, among other things, the market which video games sell to these days: the ever impatient mass market. Products need to be watered down in order to appeal to the vast majority of people becuase, well, most people don't want to think when they play video games. Seriously, I've heard this exact statement come out of countless mouths 'I didn't like such-and-such game, it was too hard/required too much thought'. These are fairly intelligent people, but much in the same way audiences in general don't like to be challenged when the go to see a movie, unless it's in a controlled and easy to digest manner, the majority of people who actually put down money to play video games don't have the patience to get bogged down by some puzzle when they're itchin' to see that next cg cutscene. I mean, c'mon, in a day and age where maximo is touted as a monsterously difficult experience, how hard do you think the average game is gonna be?
-Jason
[this message was edited by Jason on Mon 21 Apr 08:06] |
| Radish 1125th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member+
 
    
    
  
| "Re(2):What's Capcom's problem???" , posted Mon 21 Apr 08:00
quote:
meh, the same could be said of video games in general, in that thay are displaying a much larger, but no less apparent downward arc in difficulty. This probably has to do with, among other things, the market which video games sell to these days: the ever impatient mass market. Products need to be watered down in order to appeal to the vast majority of people becuase, well, most people don't want to think when they play video games. Seriously, I've heard this exact statement come out of countless mouths 'I didn't like such-and-such game, it was too hard/required too much thought'. These are fairly intelligent people, but much in the same way audiences in general don't like to be challenged when the go to see a movie, unless it's in a controlled and easy to digest manner, the majority of people who actually put down money to play video games don't have the patience to get bogged down by some puzzle when they're itchin' to see that next cg cutscene. I mean, c'mon, in a day and age where maximo is touted as a monsterously difficult experience, how hard do you think the average game is gonna be?
Seriously. I found it amusing how magazines complained that Tactics Ogre KoL was too hard, the stats and such were complicated and the story was hard to follow (although I agree it could have used a Warren Report). When I played it all I could think of was how watered down and easy it was compared to the previous Ogre Battle games, although I do still love it. It even had a stereotypical “Gotta kill the evil demon/god/Pope before he recreates the world in his image” plot.
However I hope we don't go back to the days when puzzles made no sense in order to stretch a 3 hour game to weeks. King's Quest games were notoriously frustrating in this respect (especially since a slight breeze would murder your character at random intervals). King's Quest 5 would even go as far as to screw you over royally if you missed something, but never tell you about it so unless you consulted a faq, there'd be no way you knew you missed picking up a shoe in the middle of a desert 4 hours earlier.
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| DarkZero
22th Post
New Customer
| "Re(8):What's Capcom's problem???" , posted Mon 21 Apr 11:09
I think most of this just comes down to the fact that making a really difficult game isn't a very good business decision. People that don't have the skills to play an incredibly hard game will be turned off by it, won't recommend it to their friends, and won't buy the sequel. You, on the other hand, a member of the hardcore niche market that likes really difficult games, still bought a Capcom game with really easy puzzles even though you think that Capcom's puzzles have been getting easier and easier. That demonstrates the entire logic behind the decision to put easy puzzles in a game. Mainstream gamers won't touch hard games, but hardcore gamers will still buy easy games because they buy more games and are generally more tolerant of different styles of play. Movies work for the same way. Movies that challenge people's minds and present something new won't be accepted by the mainstream public, but movies that don't challenge people's minds will still be accepted by hardcore movie-goers because they watch more movies and are generally more tolerant of different forms of movies. The end result? Easy game makes money, hard game doesn't; Stupid movie makes money, smart movie doesn't. "Hey boss, what kind of game should we make next?" "Well, which one sold better last year?"
One thing I've heard, though, is that Japanese games are really to blame here. I've seen several interviews with people from the staffs of Shinobi, Devil May Cry, and other harder-than-usual games, and a lot of them have reported getting a lot of complaints from Japanese gamers that the games are too hard, but far fewer complaints from American gamers. The games also sell better in the United States, though I'm not sure if this was based on market percentage (which would mean something) or by number of sales (which would not, since the US has a larger population and thus more gamers). This might be why some games have more difficult features added when they come to the US and Europe, like extra difficulty modes and special bosses like the Emerald and Ruby Weapons.
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| Sensenic 529th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(9):What's Capcom's problem???" , posted Mon 21 Apr 12:57
quote:
Okay, I'm playing through Clock Tower 3... and I've noticed the difficulty level for the puzzles in their games has gone down to McDonald's Happy Meal level. I'm not joking- at least 75% of the puzzles in Clock Tower 3 have the solution sitting three feet away... There was one where you find a skeleton holding a note that more or less says, "Boy, I sure wish I had my glasses..." and -I'm not joking- you turn around, and there are the glasses sitting on a rock in the exact same room not three feet away. Problem solved! Wheeee! I LOVE Capcom's fighting games and etc., but when it comes to having a story with puzzles, they've been falling shorter and shorter and shorter. I remember playing through RE2 years ago and being disappointed in how EASY the text riddles were to decode, and it just seems to have gotten worse since then... Anyone else feel this way, or is it just me???
meh, the same could be said of video games in general, in that they are displaying a much larger, but no less apparent downward arc in difficulty. This probably has to do with, among other things, the market which video games sell to these days: the ever impatient mass market. Products need to be watered down in order to appeal to the vast majority of people becuase, well, most people don't want to think when they play video games. Seriously, I've heard this exact statement come out of countless mouths 'I didn't like such-and-such game, it was too hard/required too much thought'. These are fairly intelligent people, but much in the same way audiences in general don't like to be challenged when the go to see a movie, unless it's in a controlled and easy to digest manner, the majority of people who actually put down money to play video games don't have the patience to get bogged down by some puzzle when they're itchin' to see that next cg cutscene. I mean, c'mon, in a day and age where maximo is touted as a monsterously difficult experience, how hard do you think the average game is gonna be?
Well I can only speak about the puzzles part, cuz I quite suck at the rest of things. That's one reason why I'm a graphic adv. player mostly  . But that genre is a clear example of this situation. Graphic advs. don't sell well cuz they're slow games about thinking, and the last games that came out have nothing to do against the ol' classics (in difficulty, I mean). They say The Longest Journey is difficult... it's just long, but as linear as this  --------------- and definitely not difficult. And better not talk about Shadow of Memories's difficulty.
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Btw, Since The Departure of the Great Adventure Game, blah blah, puzzles must be easy or tedious in all survival horror games. Except that godamn piano puzzle in the first Silent Hill.
Funny, I didn't find that puzzle much difficult....
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However I hope we don't go back to the days when puzzles made no sense in order to stretch a 3 hour game to weeks. King's Quest games were notoriously frustrating in this respect (especially since a slight breeze would murder your character at random intervals). King's Quest 5 would even go as far as to screw you over royally if you missed something, but never tell you about it so unless you consulted a faq, there'd be no way you knew you missed picking up a shoe in the middle of a desert 4 hours earlier.
Ah, Sierra Games... such classics. You've made me recall Legend of Kyrandia, that gave you the clues for the puzzles AFTER you had solved them, specially that -censored- gems puzzle.
quote:
I think most of this just comes down to the fact that making a really difficult game isn't a very good business decision. People that don't have the skills to play an incredibly hard game will be turned off by it, won't recommend it to their friends, and won't buy the sequel. You, on the other hand, a member of the hardcore niche market that likes really difficult games, still bought a Capcom game with really easy puzzles even though you think that Capcom's puzzles have been getting easier and easier. That demonstrates the entire logic behind the decision to put easy puzzles in a game. Mainstream gamers won't touch hard games, but hardcore gamers will still buy easy games because they buy more games and are generally more tolerant of different styles of play. Movies work for the same way. Movies that challenge people's minds and present something new won't be accepted by the mainstream public, but movies that don't challenge people's minds will still be accepted by hardcore movie-goers because they watch more movies and are generally more tolerant of different forms of movies. The end result? Easy game makes money, hard game doesn't; Stupid movie makes money, smart movie doesn't. "Hey boss, what kind of game should we make next?" "Well, which one sold better last year?"
One thing I've heard, though, is that Japanese games are really to blame here. I've seen several interviews with people from the staffs of Shinobi, Devil May Cry, and other harder-than-usual games, and a lot of them have reported getting a lot of complaints from Japanese gamers that the games are too hard, but far fewer complaints from American gamers. The games also sell better in the United States, though I'm not sure if this was based on market percentage (which would mean something) or by number of sales (which would not, since the US has a larger population and thus more gamers). This might be why some games have more difficult features added when they come to the US and Europe, like extra difficulty modes and special bosses like the Emerald and Ruby Weapons.
 So sadly true...
Rincewind: Hello! Anyone out there?!
Why should you drink & drive when you can smoke & fly?
-A woman to a boy I crossed with in the street-
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| Undead Fred 514th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(9):What's Capcom's problem???" , posted Mon 21 Apr 12:59
quote:
One thing I've heard, though, is that Japanese games are really to blame here. I've seen several interviews with people from the staffs of Shinobi, Devil May Cry, and other harder-than-usual games, and a lot of them have reported getting a lot of complaints from Japanese gamers that the games are too hard, but far fewer complaints from American gamers. The games also sell better in the United States, though I'm not sure if this was based on market percentage (which would mean something) or by number of sales (which would not, since the US has a larger population and thus more gamers). This might be why some games have more difficult features added when they come to the US and Europe, like extra difficulty modes and special bosses like the Emerald and Ruby Weapons.
Hmm... that's odd! I was afraid they dumbed down the puzzles for America because they thought we're stupid or something... That's one of the reasons I love Silent Hill- I actually have to FIGURE OUT the puzzles. Some are easier than others, but that puzzle where you put the coins on the desk gives me trouble every time. Second to that would be the piano puzzle. I could go off on a tangent why the Silent Hill games are scary and RE aren't, but that's a different topic.
It just sucks... people who don't want to bother with a story and just want to see things explode should just avoid survival horror and stick to arcade-style games. I want more to explore with puzzles that aren't meant for people who have been beaten in the head with a hammer.
I'm capable of much better graphic design but I just slapped this together. Sorry....
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| Undead Fred 515th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(4):Re(10):What's Capcom's problem???" , posted Mon 21 Apr 16:54
quote:
Well they do make the difficulty adjustable in games for a reason. Not everybody who buys the game is on the same skill level. Unfortunately the idea of "difficulty" usually just means the enemies do more damage, you do less damage, you have less ammo, or you have less time to solve a puzzle. In a way it does make the game harder, but not in the sense of making it more challenging to your intellect. Like it's been said... the market has changed since the days of 8 bit. Video games are no longer considered nerdy and are a part of main stream society. On the plus side the more money the games make, the bigger the budget, and the more high tech we get... and on the negative side we have to put up with the DOA beach volleyball and Tomb Raider games.
First off, DOAXVB is fun. I don't care what anyone says. It's mindless, but fun.
Anyway, MY point in all of this was that the puzzles (in Capcom games, mostly) are on a VERY low level of difficulty... and you can't raise them.
"You have found a note: 'In all my years... boy, I sure would like a piece of gum.' >
He is holding something. >
You have found a piece of gum. >
Would you like to use it? >Yes No
CONGRATULATION! A WINNER IS YOU."
And of course, I'm like: (-_- ) <[ ....... ]
At least Silent Hill has challenging puzzles, and Silent Hill 2 lets you adjust the difficulty of the puzzles from "Stupid" to "Thank You, Finally a Challenge". I'm not saying I hate having adjustable difficulty for puzzles. I'm saying, at least in Capcom's games, the puzzles require ABSOLUTELY no thought.
As for LucasArts games, yeah, the puzzles are ridiculously hard because the solutions make no sense. "I see some fake vomit stuck to the ceiling where I can't reach it... but... it won't come down... I have no idea what I'll need it for.... ummm.... USE > BOTTLE OF WINE... Nope.... Uhhh.... USE > THAT CAT YOU CAUGHT AND PAINTED LIKE A SKUNK.... Nope... Ummm...." And six months later you figure out that you talk to the tentacle upstairs and ask him to play his loud music after finally figuring out you can kick one of the amps over and vibrate the fake vomit off the ceiling... I finally quit playing their RPG's (or whichever category you want to put them in) because the puzzles are so abstract that you only finally figure the solution out by luck.
I'm capable of much better graphic design but I just slapped this together. Sorry....
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| EddyT
136th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(5):Re(10):What's Capcom's problem???" , posted Tue 22 Apr 02:00
Difficulty in games isn't as important of a factor to me as... say, good gameplay or involving storyline, but if a great game that I like is also challenging, it's always a plus that is appreciated. I really, REALLY like it when a game rewards you for your hard work and going the extra mile.
One tough cookie I am really enjoying recently is Mega Man Zero for GBA. The levels in that game are very difficult, but the controls, music, graphics and plot are pretty involving. I totally love the fact how you can earn rank at the end of each stage depending on certain factors. Getting an "S" ranking is definitely nerve-wracking... you need to beat a time limit, not get hit AT ALL, kill a cetain amount of enemies and a few other requirements. I've only gotten one "S" the entire time I played, and I had to play that stage over 100 times to finally get it.
Sad thing is, I can see Capcom toning down the difficulty on the sequel. It's a shame... it felt like back in the day when I was playing Ninja Gaiden for NES. One false move and it was over, but it was good and fun frustration.
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| Sensenic 532th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(5):Re(10):What's Capcom's problem???" , posted Tue 22 Apr 04:19
quote:
Ha ha! Monkey Island 2 went even farther than that. One of the clues to a puzzle was in the sequel (MI3) so unless you randomly mixed drinks until you got a green color, you were out of luck. MI3 had a book full of mixed drinks and one of them was the one you needed in 2. Odd.
 A classic one. But that wasn't intended, though. Mentioning all those drinks in the book on CMI was just an easter egg, a reference for those who had played the previous game. In the original guess that puzzle had to be solved as you say, trying random mixings.
In LOK they put the clue after the puzzle on purpose.
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As for LucasArts games, yeah, the puzzles are ridiculously hard because the solutions make no sense. "I see some fake vomit stuck to the ceiling where I can't reach it... but... it won't come down... I have no idea what I'll need it for.... ummm.... USE > BOTTLE OF WINE... Nope.... Uhhh.... USE > THAT CAT YOU CAUGHT AND PAINTED LIKE A SKUNK.... Nope... Ummm...." And six months later you figure out that you talk to the tentacle upstairs and ask him to play his loud music after finally figuring out you can kick one of the amps over and vibrate the fake vomit off the ceiling...
That's Day of the Tentacle. It had absurd humour, so it had absurd logic too. For example, in another puzzle you had to weash a car to cause rain, because, as anyone knows, it always rains right after you wash your car... 
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I finally quit playing their RPG's (or whichever category you want to put them in)
Graphic adventures.
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because the puzzles are so abstract that you only finally figure the solution out by luck.
Well, most of them had their logic (with a few exceptions, like the one you've mentioned before), and there were always clues here and there....
Rincewind: Hello! Anyone out there?!
Why should you drink & drive when you can smoke & fly?
-A woman to a boy I crossed with in the street-
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| Hungrywolf 1931th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
   
  
| "Re(6):Re(10):What's Capcom's problem???" , posted Tue 22 Apr 10:11
quote:
Ha ha! Monkey Island 2 went even farther than that. One of the clues to a puzzle was in the sequel (MI3) so unless you randomly mixed drinks until you got a green color, you were out of luck. MI3 had a book full of mixed drinks and one of them was the one you needed in 2. Odd.
A classic one. But that wasn't intended, though. Mentioning all those drinks in the book on CMI was just an easter egg, a reference for those who had played the previous game. In the original guess that puzzle had to be solved as you say, trying random mixings.
In LOK they put the clue after the puzzle on purpose.
As for LucasArts games, yeah, the puzzles are ridiculously hard because the solutions make no sense. "I see some fake vomit stuck to the ceiling where I can't reach it... but... it won't come down... I have no idea what I'll need it for.... ummm.... USE > BOTTLE OF WINE... Nope.... Uhhh.... USE > THAT CAT YOU CAUGHT AND PAINTED LIKE A SKUNK.... Nope... Ummm...." And six months later you figure out that you talk to the tentacle upstairs and ask him to play his loud music after finally figuring out you can kick one of the amps over and vibrate the fake vomit off the ceiling...
That's Day of the Tentacle. It had absurd humour, so it had absurd logic too. For example, in another puzzle you had to weash a car to cause rain, because, as anyone knows, it always rains right after you wash your car...
I finally quit playing their RPG's (or whichever category you want to put them in)
Graphic adventures.
because the puzzles are so abstract that you only finally figure the solution out by luck.
Well, most of them had their logic (with a few exceptions, like the one you've mentioned before), and there were always clues here and there....
Is Day of the Tentacle the sequel to Maniac Mansion, or related to it in any way? I love Maniac Mansion.
"Someday we'll find it the rainbow connection..." -Kermit The Muppet Movie
Hungry Like the Wolf
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| OmegaDog 540th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Ye olden games of adventure" , posted Tue 22 Apr 12:18
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Yup, it's the sequel. Great game btw.
Lucas Arts also re-released some classic games over here. Like Monkey Island 3 and 4. And I bought a pack which contained a few games; Grim Fandango, Sam and Max hit the road, the Dig, and Full Throttle. Most of those games are really good.. and the re-released games work flawlessly on modern operating systems.
I just need to find some time to play those :P
What's great is that there's even an interpreter for games based on the SCUMM engine, so just as long as you own the original SCUMM scripts, you can play it on different platforms that it wasn't originally intended for, such as Linux and Dreamcast (direct port to DC, not through LinuxDC). Of course, the interpreters are still faulty -- and it's kind of a moot point discussing it -- you can still enjoy the games through the TV on your couch if you've got an OS that runs it well, a TV-out port that outputs the signal correctly, and a nice wireless gamepad or mouse.
On the subject of interpreters -- the old AGI interpreters for Sierra are great. Since they output three music channels and one noise channel, and since most AGI game music pieces are programmed to use the extra channels, the music pieces sound much better here than if you were playing 'em through the standard unmodified DOS Sierra AGI interpreter. (I tend to use NAGI.)
A great way to replay the AGI classics. Of course, then you remember just how frustratingly difficult they actually were, and how they would often lead to obsessive-compulsive game saving, in case we a) died quite easily or b) missed an important item or puzzle. I bet a session of Clock Tower 3 back then, if it really is that easy, might actually go far in saving sanity after a session of these games.
Has anyone here gone through the "Sometimes it is wise to think backwards" puzzle in the AGI version of King's Quest? Ifnkovhgroghprm.
"IT'S PAYBACK TIME..." "LOCKED AND LOADED!" | CCT: NEXT STAGE IS 11 |
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"Re(3):What's Capcom's problem???" 
MESSATSU 
