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| Dr Baghead 2092th Post
 
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
    
    
    
    
|  "Re(3):Temco pissed over nude patch as expecte"
, posted Wed 2 Apr 10:17
quote:
The only difference that I can see between the two is that the doujinshi artists are making money off of other people's copyrighted works and these hackers are giving it away for free.
Well when you look at it from creator's view though why they would sue is clear.
A doujinshi just uses the characters. Everything else is the work of the artist... the story, the art, hell! they probably even drew the existing characters in a unique way. So even though Tecmo owns the characters a doujinshin isn't effecting their work.
A patch however is... Itagaki and friends work hard to make mediocre fighting games and a fabulous collecting random shit game that happens to include volleyball. Then some hackers decide their labor of love wasn't enough and write a code to remove the clothing they spent so long texturing.
If Itagaki had intended there to be a nude mode there would be one.... to go and create and distrubt a patch to implant a nude code would be like hacking a DVD player so Bambi's mother isn't killed (or if you're an anime fan, replace "Bambi's mother" with a certain BeBopin' cowboy...) or hacking the Louve so the Mona Lisa was sticking her tounge out... obviously it's FAR too generous to place Itakagi among such greats as Walt Disney, Leonardo DiVinci, and whoever made Cowboy Bebop (I'll edit the post once someone tells me) but the point remains, you're still altering an "artist" work.
So look at it that way. There seems to be no great harm in a nude code until you realize Itagaki has nothing better to do then make these games...he thinks they're fun to play and would like people to buying them because you like rehashed DoA2 or collecting various dessert items and NOT because you found a patch on the internet that retextures the characters in a game you'd never play otherwise naked.
Side-ranting:
I'm really againist the whole concept of the nude patch. I mean, the collection is the only reason to buy the game, so why download a patch that mask 300 items from said collection? Plus, why did they have to retexture them in such detail? If was just a patch that masked their swimsuits so you could play as them with their "star" textures would be one thing, but giving them nipples and pubic hair really over sexualizes the whole game, it turns something "cute" into something almost "disgustingly creepy."(I know that makes me sound weird, but to me DoA's fan service has always stayed in the "cute" section, it's never really pushed the line and even when Kasumi and Christie were offically naked in DoA2 and DoA3/X respectively there was so little detail you couldn't really count it as "sexual", yet such a patch pushes it well beyond such.)
but the real reason I find a nude patch wrong... at least half the girls in the game seem underage. I know techincally Lei-Fang is "24", Hitomi is "18", and Kasumi/Ayane are "unknown"... but it doesn't change the fact they look and act like 13 year olds... I don't even like the idea of them wearing some of the game's more risque swimsuits (those are to be the last things I ever add to their collections, right before I retire the game and never play it again.) so I can't imagine why anyone who would want to see them naked.
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| Dr Baghead 2095th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):Temco pissed over nude patch as expecte" , posted Wed 2 Apr 11:20
quote:
I don't really agree with you about Itagaki's labor of love argument. What if I buy a hand crafted chair that the maker really wanted to be a chair. I decide that the chair would look better as a stool so I saw off the back and tell other people that they can buy the chair, saw off the back and make a keen ottoman. Does the original craftsman have the right to sue me and make sure I keep his chairs as originally designed?
Just because you tell others "oh you can still buy the chair!" doesn't mean they won't go and slive it up into a foot stool either.
If the chair is an original design, the craftsmen probably would have some grounds to sue you (well assume they do, since Tecmo obviously has a legal ground againist patch makers and hackers)... especially if you put plans on the internet on how to make said chair into a foot stool.
So once again, look from the creators point of view... you labor for months sanding, sawing, varnishing, hammering, etc. to make what you see as a chair everyone can enjoy sitting in... how would you feel if someone lobs off the back, the arm rest, and few inches from the legs so they have something to plop their feet on.
If you only made the chair for money, you don't care... maybe you'd try to talk them into buying a second one so their new footstool matches the sitting place... but if you put your soul into your work (even though DoA certainly isn't "high art" nothing seems to indicate Itakagi isn't putting his all into the series) seeing someone 'destroy' it causes tremendous pain no money amount of money could ever fix. (but you argue "they're sueing for money!", but that might be because a monitary threat will stop hackers... not because the money will restore what was taken from Itakagi and his "daughters")
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| Rid Hershel 4797th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(7):Temco pissed over nude patch as expecte" , posted Wed 2 Apr 11:33
I'm with Radish in here, if I get a game I can use it any way I want. If I want it as a frisbee, I can throw it through the window (like I did with a friend's Mortal Kombat 4), if I want to gameshark in my team Balmafula (like I did in FFT), I can. Plus, it's not like the original is lost, like with art!
Itagaki should have seen this coming, making a game for that market (drooling teen male fanboys, that includes lots of guys with progtramming/hacking knowledge), with little gameplay/artistic value.
Then again, that's only my opinion.
updated mar 28 - Fanart by Juan
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| Dr Baghead 2096th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(8):Temco pissed over nude patch as expecte" , posted Wed 2 Apr 13:17
quote:
I'm with Radish in here, if I get a game I can use it any way I want. If I want it as a frisbee, I can throw it through the window (like I did with a friend's Mortal Kombat 4), if I want to gameshark in my team Balmafula (like I did in FFT), I can. Plus, it's not like the original is lost, like with art!
So to what extent should game publishers have rights then?
If Tecmo wanted nudity in the game they would have put it in there, it's not a hackers right to change copyrighted material and distrubt it freely about.
(I'm taking the whole "artist don't like their work altered" stance because lately my teachers have been correcting my work BY DRAWING ON IT. It's really annoying to make something you rather like only to have someone else come by and say "hey that's not too bad... only change this!" DEEP CHARCOAL LINE ON PICTURE... as far as I can tell, someone putting nude textures in the game is just as f**king annoying as someone putting "correction" lines on drawing)
quote:
Itagaki should have seen this coming, making a game for that market (drooling teen male fanboys, that includes lots of guys with progtramming/hacking knowledge), with little gameplay/artistic value.
I bought DoAX, and the whole concept of the nude patch disgust me (for reason I already explained.) Why should someone how makes a game that sell based on fan service just EXPECT this to happen and go one with life?
If we were talking about Eidos and the Nude Raider patch I'd understand, the concept of "oh well! not like we didn't see this one a mile away!" But Itakagi truely believes DoA is a ground breaking series (hence his speaking the truth on Tekken 4), he thinks the fan service is just something 'cute' to ice a cake made of "inovative gameplay"... I honestly don't think he knows MK:DA is better then DoA3 and that people only play for the bouncy... at best you must think when a nude patch comes out Itakagi's world comes crashing down... no longer are people enjoying DoA because it's a "revolutionary next step fighting game" or DoAX because it's "his gift to his fans", no he awakes to find people only want the girls... how heart breaking for him, all he wants is to make games people can enjoy (he needs to work on that part) with some eye candy, but all the consumer wants is pussy.
Who truely is the monster?!?! That Kasumi Pixie in Monster Rancher 2...or US!!! For thinking we are not hurting Itagaki's soul with our perversions!!
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| OYashiroForever
145th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(9):Temco pissed over nude patch as expecte" , posted Wed 2 Apr 14:00
quote:
(I'm taking the whole "artist don't like their work altered" stance because lately my teachers have been correcting my work BY DRAWING ON IT. It's really annoying to make something you rather like only to have someone else come by and say "hey that's not too bad... only change this!" DEEP CHARCOAL LINE ON PICTURE... as far as I can tell, someone putting nude textures in the game is just as f**king annoying as someone putting "correction" lines on drawing)
Annoying? Sure... to Itagaki and all who worked hard on this waste of marketing and development dollars, this must certainly be a gut punch. Illegal? Not even close. The bored young man who programmed this patch is:
a) not making any money from it.
and
b) not re-producing/distributing copyrighted material.
Therefore, any lawsuit made by anyone because of this wouldn't have a leg to stand on unless it had to do with defamation of "characters". :) But even that would be a REAL stretch and probably wouldn't hold up. In summary, if you wanna complain about the hack's bad taste (though it certainly can't be any worse than the actual game itself), fine. Hollering about it from a legal standpoint is pissing in to the wind.
quote:
I bought DoAX, and the whole concept of the nude patch disgust me (for reason I already explained.) Why should someone how makes a game that sell based on fan service just EXPECT this to happen and go one with life?
If a movie like Forrest Gump can be redone as porn, then a game with underage girls with stripper's bodies playing beach volleyball and feeding each other is a foregone conclusion. As a matter of fact, it might as well be pornography already. By the definition of the current Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, pornography is anything that has zero artistic merit and causes sexual thoughts... sound familiar?
quote:
But Itakagi truely believes DoA is a ground breaking series (hence his speaking the truth on Tekken 4), he thinks the fan service is just something 'cute' to ice a cake made of "inovative gameplay"... I honestly don't think he knows MK:DA is better then DoA3 and that people only play for the bouncy... at best you must think when a nude patch comes out Itakagi's world comes crashing down... no longer are people enjoying DoA because it's a "revolutionary next step fighting game" or DoAX because it's "his gift to his fans", no he awakes to find people only want the girls... how heart breaking for him, all he wants is to make games people can enjoy (he needs to work on that part) with some eye candy, but all the consumer wants is pussy.
Who truely is the monster?!?! That Kasumi Pixie in Monster Rancher 2...or US!!! For thinking we are not hurting Itagaki's soul with our perversions!!
This is a joke, right?
"I haven't slept for 10 days because that would be too long."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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| CrazyMike 485th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):Temco pissed over nude patch as " , posted Wed 2 Apr 15:08
First of all, how can anyone honestly compare this to drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa?
There is only one Mona Lisa, but there are thousands of copies of DOA, and this little patch is not "permament" it can be undone.
What is worse of Tecmo, they are acting unprofessional by putting little messages, like "We are watching you closely!" and "other legal issues" or "anyone care to be the second?"
I like how Tecmo does not even get into details of what is illegal about the patch, it is "other legal issues" and instead of issuing a formal warning, they have to talk like some flamer or op on IRC by saying, "anyone care to be the second?"
Likewise, if I crafted a chair and somebody bought it from me and hacked it up, well I would be disappointed, but I would still have no legal right to do anything about it because it is THEIR PROPERTY now.
And for those criticizing the perversion of pubes and nipples, well I think this whole game is no less perverted than a softcore porn movie. Girls rubbing on each other, talking with mousy voices that sound like a 12 year old, breasts bouncing around, how can anyone actually not view this as "perverted"? Of course I don't believe in perversion over the female body, and frankly I do not see the big deal over a little T&A. Perversion is not detailed nudity, perversion is pedophilia and beastality @_@
The finaly irony, you KNOW Tecmo has their own coded patched game with nudity at their offices, you think the programmers who made this game didn't hack a little copy of their own with more uh, risque elements, for their own personal use?
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| Tashoku Kisune 2006th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):Temco pissed over nude patch as expecte" , posted Wed 2 Apr 15:52
quote:
LOL. That would be so utterly hilarious!! Well I guess I sorta look at it as all fun and games. I'm an artist.. as long as my original's left alright.. I'd be pretty cool with someone taking funny takes on my pictures. In fact... some day you guys should do that. Add in word bubbles or something.. whatever you think.. just to make fun of the characters. But then again.. I tend to do that to my own stuff. If I made a fight game I'd probably wanna see some of those patches. It's just a patch after all.. it's not utterly destroying the "art" or in my opinion it isn't. It's just some fun and games.. like someone putting fake plastic dog poop on your front porch.
I think you're looking at this all the wrong, Tash. You said you'd like people to do funny takes on your pictures or it's like putting dog poop on a porch.
The people who made the DoAX patch didn't do it for shits and giggles, they're doing it to make smut.
It's not the same as taking your pictures and adding word balloons, it's like taking your pictures and removing the clothing and adding accurate "naughty bits"... you turning your good art into disturbing Hentai.
and as far as not actually destorying the "art" goes... do you know how many people out there would only buy the game to use such a patch? They're ignoring Itagaki's original intent to use the naked textures, many of them will never see the original version because what they have they find much better.
also speaking as an artist, I can see nothing wrong with 'approved' alterations, such as ones suggest by the creator (what you said you wouldn't mind being done to your work) or even alterations made by the creator themself... but when a 3rd party goes out and changes a work to something the creator didn't intend because they think it's better... well, you can see how that's wrong.
To be honest... it really wouldn't bother me a whole lot. What other people do with what they find isn't my business. If someone buys a picture off of me.. and they feel like spitting on it... whatever. I'm just not uptight about stuff like this exactly. Whatever floats your boat, man. I don't really care what people do to the images of my art that they download. If they feel like defacing it.. honestly, I don't care. And I'd care even less if I actually got any sort of income for my art at all. But people don't really wanna pay for it.. but hey.. if someone downloads an image and does that, it'd be interesting. I'd hope that they'd do a good job. Seriously.. If people are going out to buy the game just to use the patch, who cares? At least they're getting their money. People can buy a game for any reason they want to and they can do to that game anything they want. If they feel like using Xenosaga for nifty coasters.. let 'em. It's none of my business. LOL. ^_^;
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| DarkZero
9th Post
New Customer
| "Re(9):Temco pissed over nude patch as expecte" , posted Wed 2 Apr 17:36
quote:
I'm with Radish in here, if I get a game I can use it any way I want. If I want it as a frisbee, I can throw it through the window (like I did with a friend's Mortal Kombat 4), if I want to gameshark in my team Balmafula (like I did in FFT), I can. Plus, it's not like the original is lost, like with art!
So to what extent should game publishers have rights then?
If Tecmo wanted nudity in the game they would have put it in there, it's not a hackers right to change copyrighted material and distrubt it freely about.
To what extent should the people that own the game, the people that paid $60 for it under the pretense that they would then own it for as long as they wanted it, have rights? I fail to see why the person that is RECEIVING $60 for a product should have a higher degree of ownership over it than the person GIVING $60 to that person to own it. The creator of the product created it and owned it until they sold it. After they sold it, they should've given up all of their rights to it, but unfortunately our legal system no longer works that way. Morally, however, I think the simple idea of "You own it, I offer to buy it, you accept, I own it now" holds true. They are wrong for trying to take back control of something that they have already sold.
It's really that simple. They owned it, but now I own it and they do not. It doesn't matter if they created it or not. If they want to retain ownership over something, they shouldn't sell it for money. They should decide if they want to own their creation or sell it, just like everyone else that isn't the head of a multinational corporation. You can eat your cake or you can have it. Pick one.
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| Ammadeau
85th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(9):Temco pissed over nude patch as expecte" , posted Wed 2 Apr 21:15
DOAX does have a long copyright notice when it starts up, which states that reverse engineering and all sorts of hacking is illegal. Of course, I have no idea if this is actually illegal or not, but that's what it says. Also, the modified textures use the original textures as a base... which are definitely copyrighted material. That's probably illegal.
Either way, I think it's obvious that this 'warning' is from Tecmo and not Itakgi. It's an empty scare tactic and a rather silly one at that.
This patch does break the original intent of the game, but it's so silly that the more I think about it, the less I think it matters. It really is very mild, especially when there are things like the venus already in the game. If they patched it to be Dead or Alive Tentacle Rape then there would be cause for concern, but this isn't worth getting upset over.
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| Dr Baghead 2097th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):Re(10):Temco pissed over nude patch as" , posted Wed 2 Apr 21:27
quote:
First of all, how can anyone honestly compare this to drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa?
the Mona Lisa example was clear supposed to be taken as a joke (hence "hacking the Louve" starting off the sentence)
But here's a better example:
Itagaki wanted DoAX and DoA:Code Chronos to be his gifts to his fans, thank yous for supporting DoA3 when it was a launch title.
So let's pretend your friend's birthday is tomorrow... you go to your local comic/import store and buy him a totally bad-ass action figure (a Evangelion one we'll say... Beserker Unit 01, original color not the crappy chrome variants, good condition box, imported so it's very pricy... but worth it, right? you know good stuff all around.) You wrap it up real nice, get a nice card and present it to him.
So now your friend has the cool EVA figure, you're happy since he seems to like it.
Next time you see your friend he shows you his "improvements" on the figure... he's repainted it teal and pink, glued a barbie dress on it, and posed it behind a bending over GI Joe. Not only that he took pictures and posted links on the internet so others could make their EVA's into similar displays.
Sure there are countless other EVA figures just like it before the changes and you should have known a teenage boy with access to model paints would alter the look of a toy... but deep down you're going to feel just a little hurt your gift wasn't accepted, that something you thought would be a perfect "thanks for being there" gift was deranged, and the person you thought was a friend turned out to be dirty freak.
You couldn't do anything about it, but Itakagi has Tecmo's legal department and obviously some legal ground to stand one (they won the DoA2 case.)
This is going to be my last post... since obviously everyone else feels Tecmo had this coming, has no right over their work once it leaves their hands, and should just leave hackers alone. I feel sorry for poor Itakagi, sure his games aren't great... but fan service isn't the same as Hentai material by any sense (at least not in DoA.) it just makes me sad people feel a hacker has more rights then an "artist."
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| RugalBernstein 3773th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Re(10):Tecmo pissed over nude patch as" , posted Wed 2 Apr 21:31:
The DOA 2 case was different, anyway... and no, I wouldn't really care if somebody altered a model I bought for them. " Dirty freak " is a bit strong in the wording department there, eh?
It all gets down to the basis of hypocrisy. So what, are they going to crack down on the doujin industry now? I think not. Perhaps it's because this was likely an American-made patch. Ha ha ha, somebody had to play it eventually, and it might as well be me.
Edit: People get too upset over stupid stuff like this, anyway. If you don't want the patch, don't download it. It should all come down to this issue. Hardly everyone is going to want to see shitty alterations done on the DOA girls; the bathing suits look quite a bit better in this case, anyway. If I had the desire to see the DOA girls naked, I'd go by a doujin, not fuck with a game in a decidedly silly manner. I feel sorry for Itagaki as a hard-core game fan who's normally against this kind of stuff, but since A.) it's DOA, and B.) the game was essentially a "sex sells" game to begin with, I couldn't care less. I'm not trying to bash Itagaki here, this just doesn't surprise me and I don't care. Tecmo in general has more or less disappointed me since their old arcade and famicom days; I'm feeling pretty good vibes about the new Ninja Gaiden, but The Jaquio had better be there, or else!! As a note, I don't like Tekken 4, either (or any of the Tekken games, really..) but as a professional, Itagaki was pretty foolish and fat-headed to mouth off like that.
Edit again: BTW, anybody notice it says " Temco " up there in the message titles?
Best site EVER: Link Here
[this message was edited by RugalBernstein on Wed 2 Apr 21:42] |
| Saint Rygar
94th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(8):Temco pissed over nude patch as expecte" , posted Wed 2 Apr 21:49
quote:
I'm with Radish in here, if I get a game I can use it any way I want. If I want it as a frisbee, I can throw it through the window (like I did with a friend's Mortal Kombat 4), if I want to gameshark in my team Balmafula (like I did in FFT), I can. Plus, it's not like the original is lost, like with art!
Itagaki should have seen this coming, making a game for that market (drooling teen male fanboys, that includes lots of
guys with progtramming/hacking knowledge), with little gameplay/artistic value.
Then again, that's only my opinion.
Totally Agree 
There's no one without scars on his heart even if it exist it's just a shadow soul...
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| Tashoku Kisune 2010th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):Re(10):Tecmo pissed over nude patch as" , posted Wed 2 Apr 22:14
quote:
The DOA 2 case was different, anyway... and no, I wouldn't really care if somebody altered a model I bought for them. " Dirty freak " is a bit strong in the wording department there, eh?
It all gets down to the basis of hypocrisy. So what, are they going to crack down on the doujin industry now? I think not. Perhaps it's because this was likely an American-made patch. Ha ha ha, somebody had to play it eventually, and it might as well be me.
Edit: People get too upset over stupid stuff like this, anyway. If you don't want the patch, don't download it. It should all come down to this issue. Hardly everyone is going to want to see shitty alterations done on the DOA girls; the bathing suits look quite a bit better in this case, anyway. If I had the desire to see the DOA girls naked, I'd go by a doujin, not fuck with a game in a decidedly silly manner. I feel sorry for Itagaki as a hard-core game fan who's normally against this kind of stuff, but since A.) it's DOA, and B.) the game was essentially a "sex sells" game to begin with, I couldn't care less. I'm not trying to bash Itagaki here, this just doesn't surprise me and I don't care. Tecmo in general has more or less disappointed me since their old arcade and famicom days; I'm feeling pretty good vibes about the new Ninja Gaiden, but The Jaquio had better be there, or else!! As a note, I don't like Tekken 4, either (or any of the Tekken games, really..) but as a professional, Itagaki was pretty foolish and fat-headed to mouth off like that.
Edit again: BTW, anybody notice it says " Temco " up there in the message titles?
I agree a bit here. I know if I gave someone a gift.. I GAVE it to them and it becomes theirs to deal with. If painting it teal and pink and gluing a dress on it made his day well then that's fine by me. It's not really my concern HOW he enjoys the gift. ^_^; Y'know?
And it's not quite like that situation. There are multiple copies of the code. And it's not a permanent alteration, either. They didn't go in and hack the entire thing so that EVERYONE's looks like that. It's totally optional. No one's making you look at it. It's kinda like if you made ten prints of a piece of art you drew and sat around in a booth at a county fair selling those copies. And then some one bought one to hang on her wall and someone else bought one to draw stupid nipples on random round-ish objects. It's like.. "whatever." It's that if you mass market something.. you're gonna get people who love it, people who hate it, and people who just wanna mess with it and add their own flare. But I say.. as long as the original copy is alright- I'm coo'. I don't really care what happens to the little clone copies. Someone messes with the original.. therefore making all the clone copies "messed-with", then I'm mad. But honestly.. in my opinion.. the patch is like putting a dress on one of my characters in one of my images. It's just funny.
Hard to elaborate at 1:15 in the morning. Perhaps if this post doesn't get too fiery, I'll attack it with better concentration and grammer in the morning. Ciao.
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| Gojira 866th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(10):Temco pissed over nude patch as expect" , posted Thu 3 Apr 11:22
quote:
To what extent should the people that own the game, the people that paid $60 for it under the pretense that they would then own it for as long as they wanted it, have rights? I fail to see why the person that is RECEIVING $60 for a product should have a higher degree of ownership over it than the person GIVING $60 to that person to own it. The creator of the product created it and owned it until they sold it. After they sold it, they should've given up all of their rights to it, but unfortunately our legal system no longer works that way. Morally, however, I think the simple idea of "You own it, I offer to buy it, you accept, I own it now" holds true. They are wrong for trying to take back control of something that they have already sold.
It's really that simple. They owned it, but now I own it and they do not. It doesn't matter if they created it or not. If they want to retain ownership over something, they shouldn't sell it for money. They should decide if they want to own their creation or sell it, just like everyone else that isn't the head of a multinational corporation. You can eat your cake or you can have it. Pick one.
You're missing the point. Tecmo never said anything about it being wrong to do whatever the hell you want to the game if you are capable. They just don't want you teaching how you did it to other people, or selling it publicly. People can use this patch to sell illegal copies of the game with the nudity already available.
GSPX Progress: |>>>>>>43%-------|
Coming soon (title tentative): Golden Rule
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| Mosquiton 700th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "what's with this thread??" , posted Thu 3 Apr 11:36:
Man, some people really have strong opinions here. Just a few things I wanted to contribute...
It's not like it's Itagaki himself telling everyone to "watch out". It's a big corporation, they do shit like this.
And the "they should of seen it coming" or "had it coming" argument is incredibly weak. No matter what the charge, that kind of "this is my opinion and I'm not going to bother qualifying it morally or logically" is not going to hold up well in court or an intellectual discussion, just so you know.
To Dr. Baghead, about MK:DA being better than DOA2 or 3, I'd say that's highly debateable. It's perfectly legitimate if someone prefers DOA gameplay to Tekken or MK:DA gameplay. You insult me by implying that I or anyone else would only play the game for "the bouncy".
I can consciously decide what I enjoy without my primal urges overriding my thought process, thank you very much. Of course, since you're passionately arguing a point I'll let it slide.
And as for the guy who mentioned being bewildered at computer rendered bouncing tits, you should stay far, far away from the films of Russ Meyer, or you'll get some first-class bewilderment in the flesh! Exxxageration? I think not.*
*the original "Dead or Alive" is excluded from this assertion
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[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Thu 3 Apr 11:40] |
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