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| Undead Fred 306th Post
 
Bronze Customer
 
    
|  "Re(1):Fanservice for girls"
, posted Sat 15 Mar 13:05
quote:
The poll about fanservice reminded me about something I was thinking about a while ago. When we think about fanservice, we immediately imagine overproportioned female characters in revealing attire. However I think there is also a huge amount of fanservice for girls (although not as much).
Most male Clamp characters over the age of 15 are incredibly tall, handsome, broad shouldered, sharp featured and mysterious. While not as gratuitous, this is similar in other shows like Fushigi Yuugi, Utena and other shoujo stuff. These characters also have a habit of falling for girls much younger than themselves (and often in the target viewer demographic).
I guess with male fanservice, it’s more “cheap.” Shows that incorporate female fanservice tend not to rely entirely on it and have good plots and the characters aren’t as shallow. So I was wondering; is there a series that relies totally on fanservice to women to the extend of stuff like Hanaukyou Maids or its ilk?
I think that fanservice for girls actually does exist (like you said). It's just in a different direction than the fanservice for guys, I say. Guys want to drool over half naked women, and the girls want more "romantic" stuff. I'm sure there are exceptions to both, but that's the way I thought it went. But otherwise, I know there are characters that seem aimed at girls (Benimaru, Anji Mito, that cowboy samurai from that old PSX game where you do "sexy moves"), so it's not like they're not getting any attention at all.
As for girly series, if no one's mentioned Fushigi Yugi (I know I've probably misspelled the hell out of that), I haven't seen it, but I overheard someone at an anime store telling someone it was a series that is meant for girls.......
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| Tashoku Kisune 1912th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
   
    
    
  
| "Whee! My turn!" , posted Sun 16 Mar 10:10
quote:
The poll about fanservice reminded me about something I was thinking about a while ago. When we think about fanservice, we immediately imagine overproportioned female characters in revealing attire. However I think there is also a huge amount of fanservice for girls (although not as much).
Most male Clamp characters over the age of 15 are incredibly tall, handsome, broad shouldered, sharp featured and mysterious. While not as gratuitous, this is similar in other shows like Fushigi Yuugi, Utena and other shoujo stuff. These characters also have a habit of falling for girls much younger than themselves (and often in the target viewer demographic).
I guess with male fanservice, it’s more “cheap.” Shows that incorporate female fanservice tend not to rely entirely on it and have good plots and the characters aren’t as shallow. So I was wondering; is there a series that relies totally on fanservice to women to the extend of stuff like Hanaukyou Maids or its ilk?
Radish: While it's true that girls have those cheesy little shoujo series... most often than not they are aimed at a much younger audience. Fushigi Yuugi is aimed at a 14 year old audience more then.. perse.. me (age 19). Most of them center around middle school girls, like Sailor Moon. While they are full of beautiful men... the main female charater is degrading towards women anyway. What really comes to mind is Fushigi Yuugi's Miaka... who is completely stupid and a shame to all girls. She actually plays the role of male fanservice in her many a naked role. I see as much boob and ass in shoujo as I do in shounen. Sometimes I find it quite amusing that I see LESS in shounen.
Shoujo, while marketed towards girls, isn't entirely what it claims to be. There's barely enough for-girls-fanservice to balance out the for-guys-fanservice. Miaka is naked entirely too much to not get a guys attention.
Aside from that, the plots most often suck as well. I like Fushigi Yuugi, don't get me wrong, I'm a raging Nakago fan. However, I'm sure that comes as no surprise. (He is the most shounen acting character anyway.) It lacks balance in the end. Naked girls are running about everywhere. For most girls.. that just doesn't do it for them. It's an obvious appeal to males.
CLAMP, mostly on X (one of my favorites). While I adore CLAMP, they are not free of this either. I could cite numerous examples in which they have depicted an ENTIRELY nude woman and with uses of phallic references. However, they fail to balance the equation and put in anything close to naked guys. And that's a disappointment. Girls like naked guys just as much as guys like naked girls. Anything who thinks differently doesn't have their head screwed on right. ^_~ CLAMP may seem like shoujo but it has some huge shounen characteristics as well.
Revolutionary Girl Utena. There is so much fanservice for guys I wonder if it should even be called shoujo at all. I wonder if it earned it only because the excessive use of pink, the art style, and the fact that there's a romantic plot. But the references to lesbianism get the guys going. While there are lots of guys... and those guys are flung into OBVIOUS fanservice for girls, Utena and Anthy suffer so much more at the hands of the director. Even Nanami has fallen victim and poor Juri is sometimes just unexcusable in their obvious fanservice towards men. No, even Utena is not free from it. And I won't even start myself on the movie which is a complete and utter disgrace to the series, the manga, and women. I don't think I've ever been so offended while watching anime before. (And usually I'm pretty loose about things like this. I let a lot slide but that movie really brushed me the wrong way.)
threesixtee: Escaflowne isn't something I'm completely familiar with. I've only seen the movie... and that's hardly anything you can base knowledge in. It seems to me to be an alright blend of the two. But I can't truly comment because I haven't seen it all.
Undead Fred: Not all girls want romance. I've met a lot through my life that couldn't honestly care less about that mushy stuff. I'd personally like to see the tables turned where some lovely male charaters are caught off guard and naked. It happens to habitually to women in anime that it's just accepted, even in shoujo series.
There are characters aimed at girls. That is quite true an observation. And while I adore Benimaru and Anji (my love!) it's not entirely a disgrace they go through. Mai is the only thing I need to say... or perhaps Athena. Maybe I should say something about Whip. All of them are portraying women sorta.. umm... oddly, I'll say. Guilty Gear is one of the ones that I will support fully as everyone's really messed up. I haven't really seen a female character that I, as a girl, deem truly disgraceful. (Like Mai.. even if she is my favorite to figh with. I do well with her.)
Mog: Fanservice for girls isn't necessarily bishounen. Would you consider having JUST a pretty girl on the screen fanservice for you? Or would you like to see her flat out naked? Most guys would want her pretty and naked and all would be well in the world. Girls aren't fridgid. They like to see what those bishounen have to offer.
Fruits Basket- one of my favorite series, along with Utena. But looking at it from a removed point of view, Tohru is a nincompoop. She's spineless. HOWEVER, there are lots of nekkid guys.. ^_^ Wheeeee! VERY good example. Fruits Basket is exactly what it should be. Lots of pretty naked guys running about being naked some more. Mog, you're a smart man.
Gravitation- unfamiliar.
Gundam Wing- Had a decent amount of pretty boys but it's not fanservice. Fruits Basket is fanservice.
Weiss Kreuz- I've only seen a little bit. While it seems rather aimed at girls I can't tell if they actually toss in REAL fanservice for the female audience or if they reduce themselves to pathetic whiners and toss in naked women to get a male audience in. ^_^ I'm semi-unfamiliar. I do hear that the story really goes to hell by the end. That's sort of a pity.
Freeter: Kare Kono- ...... umm... unfamiliar.
Rid: Just because he's pretty doesn't mean he's fanservice. It just means he's pretty. When he's naked, he's fanservice. Gotta keep the scales even here. Naked girls for guys, naked guys for girls.
Iori isn't fanservice. Some of his fanart might be... but blegh. >_<
Undead Fred: You are also a wise man. ^_^
Radish: You also rock.
Rugal: I dub you the dalilama. You are THE wisest man here. Those romance novels are utter trash. Some of them are quite surprising. You guys should pick a few of them up someday and just LOOK at what's on those pages. I don't even read them. o_O It's just literary porn. Yikes!
Rugal: YAOI. While I'm not a fan... it's a balance to the scale and I appreciate it. Yuri gets on my nerves occasionally because as an artist that's all guys want me to draw. Like idiots they flock towards me asking me to draw lesbians and I'm tired of it. -_- I don't even like drawing hentai. I'm personally a fan of shounenai. It's something a little less brazen for me. I'll be the first to admit it... stuff like that makes me blush like hell. I try to avoid it. but YAOI is a much needed balance. If I had more guts I'd give it a stab.
I did notice everyone else's reaction to YAOI. You don't wanna touch base on that very much, do you? Not your style, is it? Then wonder to yourself why women should be any more tolerant to Yuri. Why does lesbianism make it alright? Because there are two sets of breasts bouncing in the same bed? While I totally support gays, lesbians... hell right down to transvestites and transsexuals. Not a whole lot of preferences disturbs me. I still don't feel like hearing a man rant about lesbians for hours and then watching him get offended or uncomfortable the minute that I say.. "gay". It's happened so often to me. (Though I'm FAR from accusing all of you guys of that. By far, you are the most tolerant crowd.) But it has happened many many times before. So what makes one more right than the other? Is there such a thing as making it more right? I watch you guys slap up some pretty interesting tags. But I've noticed that occasionally mine are greeted with uncomfortable compliments. "It's good, but not my deal, y'know?" Despite me silently tolerating some pretty avantgarde tags.. and seriously not caring. What makes a tag of mine with two ONLY suggestibly posed guys so uncomfortable? Because it hints at gay relations?
You figure it out. ^_~
But it sort of links back to the fanservice. I'm not sure you guys honestly wanna face up to what would be TRULY fanservice for women. Fruits Basket comes close... but there's a small balance. But it's something to think about. If the fanservice YOU guys receive was the same as the fanservice for girls.. you'd steer far far away from shoujo anime. You would wanna touch shoujo as much as YAOI... you wouldn't with a ten foot poll. Even my silly little tags with only hints and suggestions make some of you uncomfortable. What would do you if guys were as naked in anime as girls were? I imagine you'd learn to tolerate it as the women have... or stop watching. ^_^ It's a "what if" question to ponder.
Vinny: As for the books. I have no idea. They're total trash. >_< It's pathetic, really. It's as bad as any other porn, pointless and lacking. As for the cowboy fixation, I have no idea. I know I personally despise them. Might have something to do with my forced southern US life. But I know I've a small grudge against the country people.. that goes for the west, too. Not to say that EVERYONE from there is bad (I was born in Arizona) but cowboys aren't the SMARTEST of people. They're like dating farmer Joe's kid. Word to the wise: Don't.
Alright.. I believe that's enough of my ranting today. I've done my once every five year feminist rant.
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| Undead Fred 321th Post
Bronze Customer
| "Re(1):Whee! My turn!" , posted Sun 16 Mar 13:16:
quote:
Undead Fred: Not all girls want romance. I've met a lot through my life that couldn't honestly care less about that mushy stuff. I'd personally like to see the tables turned where some lovely male charaters are caught off guard and naked. It happens to habitually to women in anime that it's just accepted, even in shoujo series.
Heh heh. Yeah, that was just something I read in Gross Generalization Monthly... don't mind me.
quote:
There are characters aimed at girls. That is quite true an observation. And while I adore Benimaru and Anji (my love!) it's not entirely a disgrace they go through. Mai is the only thing I need to say... or perhaps Athena. Maybe I should say something about Whip. All of them are portraying women sorta.. umm... oddly, I'll say. Guilty Gear is one of the ones that I will support fully as everyone's really messed up. I haven't really seen a female character that I, as a girl, deem truly disgraceful. (Like Mai.. even if she is my favorite to fight with. I do well with her.)
I wouldn't say Whip's "odd"... much less Athena... she comes off as really Sailor Moon to me. I like Whip, too. It's not like the whip is a bad thing... there's a difference between Whip and Sofia from Toshinden- one's meant to come off as a dominatrix type of character, while the other isn't. So, I don't really think she's odd.
quote:
I did notice everyone else's reaction to YAOI. You don't wanna touch base on that very much, do you? Not your style, is it? Then wonder to yourself why women should be any more tolerant to Yuri. Why does lesbianism make it alright? Because there are two sets of breasts bouncing in the same bed? While I totally support gays, lesbians... hell right down to transvestites and transsexuals. Not a whole lot of preferences disturbs me. I still don't feel like hearing a man rant about lesbians for hours and then watching him get offended or uncomfortable the minute that I say.. "gay". It's happened so often to me. (Though I'm FAR from accusing all of you guys of that. By far, you are the most tolerant crowd.) But it has happened many many times before. So what makes one more right than the other? Is there such a thing as making it more right? I watch you guys slap up some pretty interesting tags. But I've noticed that occasionally mine are greeted with uncomfortable compliments. "It's good, but not my deal, y'know?" Despite me silently tolerating some pretty avantgarde tags.. and seriously not caring. What makes a tag of mine with two ONLY suggestibly posed guys so uncomfortable? Because it hints at gay relations?
You figure it out. ^_~
But it sort of links back to the fanservice. I'm not sure you guys honestly wanna face up to what would be TRULY fanservice for women. Fruits Basket comes close... but there's a small balance. But it's something to think about. If the fanservice YOU guys receive was the same as the fanservice for girls.. you'd steer far far away from shoujo anime. You would wanna touch shoujo as much as YAOI... you wouldn't with a ten foot poll. Even my silly little tags with only hints and suggestions make some of you uncomfortable. What would do you if guys were as naked in anime as girls were? I imagine you'd learn to tolerate it as the women have... or stop watching. ^_^ It's a "what if" question to ponder.
WOW... you sure got pissed there. Heh heh. Personally, although that one tag you was a little too feminine to me (the guy with orange hair on a yellow background), I tried to avoid saying anything about it EVER because I knew that's the kind of stuff you like. But, it apparently came up in one of the threads one time because I remember commenting on it once... sorry.
I'm secure enough with myself not to make a big deal if someone mentions yaoi ("Eeew! Yaoi! Super gross! See? Just to make sure everyone knows I'm straight..."); that comment I made a few posts back was a joke. I know I like girls, that's good enough. I don't feel the need to broadcast it just in case someone doubts that. Basically, I'm just saying I don't like the yaoi stuff, but it's also not a threat to me. I don't mind it being there because I figure girls like it.
The End.
[this message was edited by Undead Fred on Sun 16 Mar 13:19] |
| Tashoku Kisune 1920th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(2):Whee! My turn!" , posted Sun 16 Mar 13:56
quote:
Undead Fred: Not all girls want romance. I've met a lot through my life that couldn't honestly care less about that mushy stuff. I'd personally like to see the tables turned where some lovely male charaters are caught off guard and naked. It happens to habitually to women in anime that it's just accepted, even in shoujo series.
Heh heh. Yeah, that was just something I read in Gross Generalization Monthly... don't mind me.
There are characters aimed at girls. That is quite true an observation. And while I adore Benimaru and Anji (my love!) it's not entirely a disgrace they go through. Mai is the only thing I need to say... or perhaps Athena. Maybe I should say something about Whip. All of them are portraying women sorta.. umm... oddly, I'll say. Guilty Gear is one of the ones that I will support fully as everyone's really messed up. I haven't really seen a female character that I, as a girl, deem truly disgraceful. (Like Mai.. even if she is my favorite to fight with. I do well with her.)
I wouldn't say Whip's "odd"... much less Athena... she comes off as really Sailor Moon to me. I like Whip, too. It's not like the whip is a bad thing... there's a difference between Whip and Sofia from Toshinden- one's meant to come off as a dominatrix type of character, while the other isn't. So, I don't really think she's odd.
I did notice everyone else's reaction to YAOI. You don't wanna touch base on that very much, do you? Not your style, is it? Then wonder to yourself why women should be any more tolerant to Yuri. Why does lesbianism make it alright? Because there are two sets of breasts bouncing in the same bed? While I totally support gays, lesbians... hell right down to transvestites and transsexuals. Not a whole lot of preferences disturbs me. I still don't feel like hearing a man rant about lesbians for hours and then watching him get offended or uncomfortable the minute that I say.. "gay". It's happened so often to me. (Though I'm FAR from accusing all of you guys of that. By far, you are the most tolerant crowd.) But it has happened many many times before. So what makes one more right than the other? Is there such a thing as making it more right? I watch you guys slap up some pretty interesting tags. But I've noticed that occasionally mine are greeted with uncomfortable compliments. "It's good, but not my deal, y'know?" Despite me silently tolerating some pretty avantgarde tags.. and seriously not caring. What makes a tag of mine with two ONLY suggestibly posed guys so uncomfortable? Because it hints at gay relations?
You figure it out. ^_~
But it sort of links back to the fanservice. I'm not sure you guys honestly wanna face up to what would be TRULY fanservice for women. Fruits Basket comes close... but there's a small balance. But it's something to think about. If the fanservice YOU guys receive was the same as the fanservice for girls.. you'd steer far far away from shoujo anime. You would wanna touch shoujo as much as YAOI... you wouldn't with a ten foot poll. Even my silly little tags with only hints and suggestions make some of you uncomfortable. What would do you if guys were as naked in anime as girls were? I imagine you'd learn to tolerate it as the women have... or stop watching. ^_^ It's a "what if" question to ponder.
WOW... you sure got pissed there. Heh heh. Personally, although that one tag you was a little too feminine to me (the guy with orange hair on a yellow background), I tried to avoid saying anything about it EVER because I knew that's the kind of stuff you like. But, it apparently came up in one of the threads one time because I remember commenting on it once... sorry.
I'm secure enough with myself not to make a big deal if someone mentions yaoi ("Eeew! Yaoi! Super gross! See? Just to make sure everyone knows I'm straight..."); that comment I made a few posts back was a joke. I know I like girls, that's good enough. I don't feel the need to broadcast it just in case someone doubts that. Basically, I'm just saying I don't like the yaoi stuff, but it's also not a threat to me. I don't mind it being there because I figure girls like it.
The End.
I was in no way targeting you personally, Fred. It's not like it was just you. There are people that I've run across outside the message board that give terrible reactions. It's just for me, someone who bases everything around completely balance and equality, finds it annoying. HOWEVER, I also stated that this board is one of the most tolerant places. ^_^;
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| RugalBernstein 3625th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):Whee! My turn!" , posted Sun 16 Mar 16:56:
With all due respect,TK, all of this whining is kind of irritating; saying " men don't go through the same thing " in fan service is entirely relative; I'm sure some people could find your tags " demeaning ", whereas plenty of women wouldn't be offended by Mai; some women are proud of the way they look. One could argue your tags are " demeaning to men " , because they " destroy the basic masculine nature of man " . Ha ha ha. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Of course, if anybody is being offended by what's little more than a drawing, well, there's " something strange in the neighborhood ". Bottom line, this all comes down to a few basic things: If you're offended by these women, you shouldn't be playing the games they're in. As for GGXX being " less fanservice-y " than say, KOF, well, apparently somebody hasn't noticed Jam is essentially one constant up-skirt shot and, well, I-no period, foul-mouthed hussy that she is (ha ha ha..) I'm so utterly tired of all this " PC " garbage it makes me want to vomit. The world isn't fair or " balanced "; live with it. You don't see me whining about your girly-man tags, so, as the old Irish saying goes, " kwityerbellieakin' ".
Edit: To summarize:
The simple truth is that the whole thing isn't as " un-balanced " as women would have you think; you never see ugly men in heroic roles, only " handsome stud-muffins " .
The only difference is men don't bitch about it 24/7 and claim that they're being treated as " sex objects " in these things.
Best site EVER: Link Here
[this message was edited by RugalBernstein on Sun 16 Mar 17:10] |
| Rid Hershel 4706th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Whee! My turn!" , posted Sun 16 Mar 17:12:
My views about it:
I don't mind if there are games with yaoi content really. But yes, being male, is the content is too explicit chances is that I'll avoid it as much as possible, because I don't like that.
Videogame industry is directed to a male audience, there are few female gamers. So, if the male (heterosexual) audience avoids the game, the slaes drop, and the game won't be sucessful, so companies try to avoid that with right.
And if somebody feels offended by the content in games and anime, he should avoid that. Nobody is making you buy anything, and playing/watching it makes you support that part of the industry that you don't like.
updated mar 07 - new site!
[this message was edited by Rid Hershel on Mon 17 Mar 03:38] |
| Radish 1001th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member
| "Re(5):Whee! My turn!" , posted Sun 16 Mar 18:57
quote:
Radish: While it's true that girls have those cheesy little shoujo series... most often than not they are aimed at a much younger audience. Fushigi Yuugi is aimed at a 14 year old audience more then.. perse.. me (age 19). Most of them center around middle school girls, like Sailor Moon. While they are full of beautiful men... the main female charater is degrading towards women anyway. What really comes to mind is Fushigi Yuugi's Miaka... who is completely stupid and a shame to all girls. She actually plays the role of male fanservice in her many a naked role. I see as much boob and ass in shoujo as I do in shounen. Sometimes I find it quite amusing that I see LESS in shounen.
Hmm... I think you're overall post brings up some interesting points. I don't think female fanservice and male fanservice are the same at all. Male fanservice is generally moderately undressed women while female fanservice is the entire setting. I like to think of it like those romantic stories versus Playboy. Playgirl sells very poorly compared to Playboy while few men buy romantic novels.
With Fushigi Yuugi, the entire set up to the story is what I'd consider female fanservice. Young average high school girl, travels to a distant land where powerful (both physically and politically) , hansome, olderfight each other for her affection. Several of my female friends were all over this when they watched it the first time through. Of course this doesn't necessarily appeal to all women, just like how stuff like say, Amazing Nurse Nanako turns off some guys.
I know there are similar situations for guys (like Chobits, Oh! My Goddess or whatever) but these usually seem a little more pathetic and have larger female followings as well (at least as far as I can tell).
I don't know what I'd consider female fanservice for older women. Most stuff is aimed at younger ones. I'd like to ammend my original question to see if anyone knows of fanservice NOT aimed at junior/highschool aged girls.
I'd really be interested to see the break down of the viewers for these shows. A guy I used to know who really was into Kenshin was aghast when he found out that in Japan the largest fanbase was 14 year old girls at the time. It doesn't bother me since I understand that the stuff I like is geared towards a certain audience but I guess it could be a shock to a guy who watched it for the sword fights.
Of course I'm just rambling and my opinions are only based on my own experiences.
And YES!! I hated Miaka and Yui. I half expected Miaka to end up on an episode of Cops when they answered a domestic disturbance since she's such a doormat. Plus she and Yui had the annoying habit of getting their friends killed. I also didn't understand what everyone saw in her. While she was nice, she was also incredibly average and had very little personality (my theory was that this was designed as such so that any young kid could more easily identify, but that's just the conspiracy theorist in me). I tried to like and feel sorry for Yui, but she was just so nasty I couldn't do it. I liked Fushigi Yuugi a lot, but the two main characters left a lot to be desired.
quote:
Radish: You also rock.
Well, thank you kindly!
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| Mog
87th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(1):Whee! My turn!" , posted Sun 16 Mar 18:58:
quote:
Mog: Fanservice for girls isn't necessarily bishounen. Would you consider having JUST a pretty girl on the screen fanservice for you? Or would you like to see her flat out naked? Most guys would want her pretty and naked and all would be well in the world.
That's the thing though, fanservice, like many things is completely relitive. What would be fanservice for me would more than likely not be concidered fanservice by your typical guy. By the same token, while not every girl out there is turned on by bishounen, it's what many people expect the typical girl to like.
quote:
Girls aren't fridgid. They like to see what those bishounen have to offer.
Some people are, some peolpe aren't. Gender in and of itself doesn't have anything to do with how fridgid a person is.
quote:
Fruits Basket- one of my favorite series, along with Utena. But looking at it from a removed point of view, Tohru is a nincompoop. She's spineless. HOWEVER, there are lots of nekkid guys.. ^_^ Wheeeee! VERY good example. Fruits Basket is exactly what it should be. Lots of pretty naked guys running about being naked some more. Mog, you're a smart man.
Heh... I definately wouldn't say I'm smart, I just have lots of fan-girl friends who keep trying to get me to wear a dress.
quote:
Gravitation- unfamiliar.
Here you go.
quote:
Gundam Wing- Had a decent amount of pretty boys but it's not fanservice. Fruits Basket is fanservice.
I included Gundam Wing since the enitire goal of the show was to attract women to Gundam. As such, they put in lots of pretty boys in order to catter to the female viewing audience (A.K.A. fan service). Gundam Wing doesn't entirely rely on it, but it definately makes use of it in my opinion.
quote:
I did notice everyone else's reaction to YAOI. You don't wanna touch base on that very much, do you?
I don't have a problem with YAOI, as I've read enough shoujo manga to the point where I'm pretty confertable with it. However, after staying with my last roommate I'm kind of YAOI'ed out for the time being....
Edit: Forgot to mention that everything I've said is mearly my opinion... Hope I didn't affend anyone within the 5 minutes my post was up without this edit.
[this message was edited by Mog on Sun 16 Mar 19:13] |
| Satoshi_Miwa 2023th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):Whee! My turn!" , posted Sun 16 Mar 20:49
I should also point out that the weird and very curious Japanese censorhip laws about showing Pubic hair also make it hard to do complete male nudity in general publications. Why you see some ditial effects in hentai anime for both sexes (If you watch them, that is...).
I'll also add, as others have said, that male and female fanservice are different in ways.
As for Fushigi Yuugi, and other Shoujo heroines to an extent (and Shonen heros) is that they are meant to be a reflection of the average person reading the comic. It allows the target reader to get more involved with the comic, and releate to the troubles (especially if they have them at home). They tend to take a bit to the extreme, but that is the logic.
It's why Miaka has exam trouble, it's why Usagi is such a clutz (except in the final battle), why Keitaro always ends up being misunderstood. And so-on...
Of course readers outside the target audience have trouble releating to them, so they often go for other characters as their favorites. But keep that in Mind when reading a manga orgianally targetd at Japanese teenage girl or boy.
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| Tashoku Kisune 1928th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(6):Whee! My turn!" , posted Mon 17 Mar 12:24
quote:
Hmm... I think you're overall post brings up some interesting points. I don't think female fanservice and male fanservice are the same at all. Male fanservice is generally moderately undressed women while female fanservice is the entire setting. I like to think of it like those romantic stories versus Playboy. Playgirl sells very poorly compared to Playboy while few men buy romantic novels.
With Fushigi Yuugi, the entire set up to the story is what I'd consider female fanservice. Young average high school girl, travels to a distant land where powerful (both physically and politically) , hansome, olderfight each other for her affection. Several of my female friends were all over this when they watched it the first time through. Of course this doesn't necessarily appeal to all women, just like how stuff like say, Amazing Nurse Nanako turns off some guys.
I know there are similar situations for guys (like Chobits, Oh! My Goddess or whatever) but these usually seem a little more pathetic and have larger female followings as well (at least as far as I can tell).
I don't know what I'd consider female fanservice for older women. Most stuff is aimed at younger ones. I'd like to ammend my original question to see if anyone knows of fanservice NOT aimed at junior/highschool aged girls.
I'd really be interested to see the break down of the viewers for these shows. A guy I used to know who really was into Kenshin was aghast when he found out that in Japan the largest fanbase was 14 year old girls at the time. It doesn't bother me since I understand that the stuff I like is geared towards a certain audience but I guess it could be a shock to a guy who watched it for the sword fights.
Of course I'm just rambling and my opinions are only based on my own experiences.
And YES!! I hated Miaka and Yui. I half expected Miaka to end up on an episode of Cops when they answered a domestic disturbance since she's such a doormat. Plus she and Yui had the annoying habit of getting their friends killed. I also didn't understand what everyone saw in her. While she was nice, she was also incredibly average and had very little personality (my theory was that this was designed as such so that any young kid could more easily identify, but that's just the conspiracy theorist in me). I tried to like and feel sorry for Yui, but she was just so nasty I couldn't do it. I liked Fushigi Yuugi a lot, but the two main characters left a lot to be desired.
Well, thank you kindly!
Ok dude.. that's exactly what I meant but in different words.
I guess I have a large problem with a lot of shoujo stuff because the main characters are idiots. Very rarely are they SMART girls. They might have a talent.. but they're often far from being bright and that is one thing that bothers me. But then again I'm a bitter premature hag who locks herself in a room brooding about such things.
My opinions are opinions as well.. only based on my experience and personal interpretation (which I hardly find annoying for me or while listening to anyone else). Personal interpretation is something I've always found fascinating. My only problem is that I tend to get fired up while expressing it.. but then again I've very few things involving emotions half heartedly. Usually when I set out to express an opinon.. I do it. On the upside, at least I know what I want. I find that even more annoying than someone who "whines". (I personally don't really find the re-expression of an opinion that obnoxious either. But then again, I've been dubbed tolerant in that department.) So I certainly didn't intent to offend anyone at all. And opinions are welcomed in return, that's for sure.
This is just my take on things. It's something I've been tossing around inside my head for a long long time. (Sorta something I encountered early on as an artist.) And so I've had time to really mull over it and give it a good, solid opinion. That's all. ^_^
As for Radish, we seem to be on a similar wavelength. That roxxor! ^_~
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| Tashoku Kisune 1929th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(4):Whee! My turn!" , posted Mon 17 Mar 12:51
quote:
With all due respect,TK, all of this whining is kind of irritating; saying " men don't go through the same thing " in fan service is entirely relative; I'm sure some people could find your tags " demeaning ", whereas plenty of women wouldn't be offended by Mai; some women are proud of the way they look. One could argue your tags are " demeaning to men " , because they " destroy the basic masculine nature of man " . Ha ha ha. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Of course, if anybody is being offended by what's little more than a drawing, well, there's " something strange in the neighborhood ". Bottom line, this all comes down to a few basic things: If you're offended by these women, you shouldn't be playing the games they're in. As for GGXX being " less fanservice-y " than say, KOF, well, apparently somebody hasn't noticed Jam is essentially one constant up-skirt shot and, well, I-no period, foul-mouthed hussy that she is (ha ha ha..) I'm so utterly tired of all this " PC " garbage it makes me want to vomit. The world isn't fair or " balanced "; live with it. You don't see me whining about your girly-man tags, so, as the old Irish saying goes, " kwityerbellieakin' ".
Edit: To summarize:
The simple truth is that the whole thing isn't as " un-balanced " as women would have you think; you never see ugly men in heroic roles, only " handsome stud-muffins " .
The only difference is men don't bitch about it 24/7 and claim that they're being treated as " sex objects " in these things.
In direct response to a post as fiery as mine:
I don't really consider it whining. It's no more whining than anyone else's opinion. (Especially since this rant hasn't REALLY popped up before now.)
I'm well aware of the possible interpretations of my tags. And that's exactly what I planned. ^_^; Most of my artwork entirely is that way, it seems. But one thing I pride myself on is providing fanservice to all. My best images don't hold the whole total of my work, of course, and they're a poor representation of the balance I provide. But someone who has followed my work through most of it's curcial development, it would be apparent that it's true. That, however, is a tad off topic.
Fanservice is, indeed, relative. And my opinionated rave is relative to my point of view and no others. For the sake of mentioning.. I didn't really suggest that anyone reform. And I certainly didn't ask anyone to agree with me. (In fact, I was quite positive that I would have 100% opposition.)
I'm not quite offended by the women directly so much as the "lack of balance" in my opinion. But then again that balance is relative. For me, though... I'll be the first to admit to being a total justice whore- always pushing my righteous "balance" on others. And it really peeves me when there isn't a balance. Usually, as in over 50% of the time, I'm not that wrong in my idea of equality. However, that is also relative to the people around me as well. (Though it's my personal belief that VERY few things are not relative.) So, indeed, your beliefs are relative as well. ^_^ No?
GG is less.. but I didn't say free from. It has it's faults as everything does. I seriously doubt that there'd be a perfect in between. But that's my problem, I suppose. I guess if all else fails... I'll just MAKE my happy medium.
And for the "live with it" idea: I already do. Afterall.. I go to this board and if I can keep up with half of what you guys talk about, I'm obviously not whining in my corner.. "Uh! but there's a panty shot! I can't play this!" We could all bitch about something. Maybe we should all take what annoys us most and..... just live with it.
The 24/7 bitching doesn't come from all women, either. That's awfully general. Some are perfectly content with it all. I know I certainly don't bitch about this 24/7. And I CERTAINLY hope that my one post doesn't qualify as a life time of whining about it. ^_~ I'm really rather tolerant. I just decided to squeeze it into that one post and after this is dead... it's likely to never come up again anyway.
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| Tashoku Kisune 1939th Post
Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(1):nervousnesses..." , posted Tue 18 Mar 09:41
quote:
Wow, a thought provoking conversation and I'm worried about opening my mouth...
Anyways, fanservice is a very powerful medium for design and I do mean to use the world powerful. With the human mind in the state that it is, well placed fanservice can propel a mediocre game to heavy popularity. Don't deny it. Seeing the image of someone that the gamer finds attractive draws them to the game and in turn causes them to buy it. The constant posts saying that "MAN SHE'S HOT" are proof. A publisher knows this and exploits it. I'll even wager to say that the ONLY two reasons why there is not more fanservice aimed at women are just that more men are in management positions and they consider the chance of getting a male gamer to buy than a female gamer (thus the male aimed fanservice in female productions). This also shows why there would be more yuri than yaoi. I personally hate both since though I respect homosexual people since many have good insights, I heavily dislike the act of homosexuality in itself (but that's off topic). It is assumed that the male will buy faster and more. Oh sure, women are quite turned on by naked men but the double standard in nearly every culture shuns their expression of it. Even though there are actual hormonal differences between male and female, most of the desire for "romance" is a twist of their desires in order to conform to society. Those romance novels are more of an escape; get some romance along with poeticly described bed sequences to satisfy the sexual urge they are forced to supress. Being romantic is great but to buck against that mentality in society is hard. I know. Being the young black man people would expect to be a thug considering the fact that he's never been in high rent and instead seeing a (lonely) poetic Urkel boy doesn't fit. I get more racial slurs from my own kind and in this I can see how in fanservice, females will be undernoticed since from both society and peers they will be shunned.
Tired now. I'll argue that GG has more fanservice than KOF and a few other things next time.
A very interesting take on it. Had I kept ranting I might have touched on it. But to be honest... by the end of it I was close to wearing myself out! ^_^ Heh.. For Americans this is true. As Rugal said, other countries they are less surpressed. Though I can't confirm this for absolute sure. I know I have a small opinion about how surpressed they are in the Middle East. That's sort of silly. But it seems as a general whole you're fairly right. Personally, I believe that the world is kinda split. Some areas let women be free in this department, others don't. America would be a concern of mine because I live here. It's definitely an interesting point of view. Good opinion. ^_^
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| Satoshi_Miwa 2028th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Shoujo Female Leads..." , posted Tue 18 Mar 19:40
quote:
Most of them center around middle school girls, like Sailor Moon. While they are full of beautiful men... the main female charater is degrading towards women anyway. *snip*
Woah, too broad of a generalization there TK. While it may apply to some series, it doesn't apply to all of the manga aimed to teenage girls. I've thought it over for a couple days, trying to remember the shows I've watched/watching that are aimed at this makret, and looked at their heorines. And I've found most do a pretty good job showing off their main lead. Like...
Card Captor Sakura: Remarkably comptent and able to adapt to new situations. Shown to be brave and is able to think on her feet as well.
Fancy Lala, or any of the classic Pierrot Magical Girl series all have very active female leads. Miho is in control of her career as Fancy Lala, and the head of Lyrical Productions is also in control as well..(Throw in Hime-chan's Ribbion here, though it isn't a Pierrot show...).
Miracle Girls: Mikage and Tomomi are both definite in their relationships, and take active roles in bringing down the bad guys.
Kodoma no Omocha: Ahh, Sana-chan, what Excel was probably like when she was a kid. Not only does she take down the devil Hayama, she's an accomplished actor and pretty much the driving force of the show. And she faces most troubles head on.
Saint Tail: Meimi pretty much outwits Asuka everytime they meet, and is an accomplished magician.
And heck, even though some people do like to dwell on her flaws, there is something about the determination Tohru has. I'd like to see anyone in the board go to school, work, and live in a tent at the same time....
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"Re(2):YEEHAW" 
but were not judged