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Rid Hershel

4379th Post

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master

"Character development in fighting games." , posted Fri 10 Jan 19:23

Can you give me examples of characters that evolve through their fighting game stories? I don't mean getting older, SF3 Ryu and MOW Terry act just the same as their younger counterparts and didn't changed during all these time. I mean, an important change. And I don't mean partial changes to their movelists either.

KOF specially worries me since a lot of story related things (specially love relationships in the Garou and AOF teams) never progress.

Replies:

Amakusa
157th Post

Regular Customer

"Re(1):Character development in fighting games" , posted Fri 10 Jan 19:51

Sagat is the only real example that jumps out in my mind. Every successive Street Fighter he's in, Sagat is less of a jerk and more of a rival.

I found Kagami's sword in a junk yard.
I also provide nothing useful to the gaming community.
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Satoshi_Miwa

1834th Post

Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive

"Re(1):Character development in fighting games" , posted Fri 10 Jan 19:51

The best example I can think of is Sagat in the SFA series. At the start he's working with Bison to get revenge on Ryu for his defeat and scarring (The Satsori no Hado), but in SFA2 he's starting to think that he's going about it the wrong way. And in SFA3 he turns against Bison, and instead starts training for a true rematch against him. While not much of a change, it is ongoing devlopment in a game...

Beyond that I can't think of much in game devlopment. Most characters tend to stay the same archetypes, as it's easier to identify with them and keeps players happy....

Toxico

2740th Post

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master

"Re(1):Character development in fighting games" , posted Fri 10 Jan 20:01

Mmmmmnnnnn....

Namco has plenty of these; for one there is Siegfried from the Soul Calibur fame; character that starts as a paladin of justice to end up as a devilish avenger.

... Games that have few parts are neat examples; such as AoF Robert Garcia (from goody two shoes side kick to skirt chaser); Shigen & Kagami from Last Blade.

While games with several ports such as SF, KoF or Tekken can hardly be applied; since the croud want the character to stay as he is the programming crew focuses on the incomming guys, leaving the rest outdated storyline wise, like quarrels that never meet a conclusion, objectives that never fullfies, no way relationships and so on.

Zazzarius
188th Post

Regular Customer

"hrmmm" , posted Fri 10 Jan 21:33

hrmm, Guilty Gear has some

i think the transition from Dr. Baldhead to Faust is pretty dramatic

Zato is pretty dramatic as well since he DIED . . . and now glows

Iggy

1199th Post

Red Carpet Premium Member+

"Re(1):Character development in fighting games" , posted Fri 10 Jan 22:16

Chunny in SF3 has nothing in common with SF0/2 Chunny... (in arcade, that is, since she didn't have that stupid "yatta" pause by default, they unlocked it in the DC version and I think it breaks the character a little).
Tôdô was an unsignificant character in his game, then became the joke character everybody loves.
Jin was boring as hell in Cyberbots, then became what he is in MvC.

おおむね大好評よ！

Gen

1163th Post

Red Carpet Premium Member+

"Re(1):Character development in fighting games" , posted Sat 11 Jan 00:35:

Easy examples are ones that change within one game. But ones that change over more than one game... And not things that are thought of as going hand in hand with age....

To me, no offense, but Iori get's more depressed every year, because he can't beat Kyo. I base this on both in game and out of game sources. Look at the drawings of him for each year; less and less happy with himself.
Meanwhile Kyo has a stalker, an army of clones with DNA stolen from him, and he's mousier than ever.

[this message was edited by Gen on Sat 11 Jan 00:35]

Luisinan
175th Post

Regular Customer

"Re(2):Character development in fighting games" , posted Sat 11 Jan 00:43

Sagat is definitely a good example of character development. Although it's a bit of a mess really because in SF2 all he wanted was revenge but Capcom sort of retroactively makes him a good guy in the SFA trilogy. And instead changes him into wanting a fair fight with Ryu. The revenge thing sort of goes away in the alpha series. Which is cool cause it makes Sagat a lot more likeable.

You could argue that Ryu goes through a small development. He does have the whole Satsui no Hado episode in the alpha series.

That's as far as I can say on the Capcom characters. Everyone else stays the same. Well, someone else mentioned Chun Li. I think Capcom has really tried to make her into a more serious character and less the cutesy female fighter from her early days.

On the SNK side I would argue that after KOF 98 SNK has tried to make Kyo into a more darker character. He went missing in 99, was solo in 2000 and got the Iori-esque super in 2001. People on these boards have also mentioned how different the voice acting is between 2K2 Kyo and Kusanagi in KOF 2002. They say that Kusanagi has a more excited voice acting, while 2K2 Kyo sounds more tired. These and other bits in the storyline lead me to believe that SNK wants Kyo to go to the 'darkside' or lose control of his power.

But other then that, even the SNK characters tend to stay the same. Well, Mai becomes more and more demanding that she gets married. And Andy gets more and more scared of Mai. That's something also. And Athena loves to change costumes. Ryo changed fighting stances too.

Ishmael

414th Post

Gold Customer

"Re(3):Character development in fighting games" , posted Sat 11 Jan 15:25

True, a lot of characters seem to have plot lines that are brought up and never fully explored [Wasn't there something about Iori being able to change the color of his flame? I think that got dropped or forgotten about after KoF96.] or who's only change is cosmetic, such as with a lot of Tekken characters who somehow not only keep the same hairlines but the same hair style for 20+ years. A lot of good examples have already been brought up of characters who have changed over the years. In addition you could mention how Mitsurugi seems to be getting more grumpy and driven in each SC game, how Morrigan discovered she had a second version of herself running around, or any other subtle changes to a character you can think of. While programmers can fool around a bit with characters after they've debuted, I can understand why they don't want to do too much since if they go too far they can loose what it is that made the character popular in the first place. For example, I have no idea why someone thought it would be a good idea to shrink Nakoruru to such a small size in SS:Warriors Rage that she had to worry about getting chased by house cats but for me that change was too much.

Sensenic
192th Post

Regular Customer

"Re(4):Character development in fighting games" , posted Sat 11 Jan 16:11

Rugal: he's died and resurected already 2 times (3 deaths counting 2k2's) and everytime he's changed his looks and techniques. Even his power source.

Now seriously: It's true, there's no character that really evolves in KOF. Perhaps Kensou would come to mind as he started just as an almost-joke character but later he's been given more importance and he's had to become more responsible due to all that Dragon Spirit power sharing with Bao and all that Athena & Bao saving. Perhaps.

quote:
True, a lot of characters seem to have plot lines that are brought up and never fully explored [Wasn't there something about Iori being able to change the color of his flame? I think that got dropped or forgotten about after KoF96.]

Actually in '97 he uses the normal flames again right in the end (Sacred Forces ending). See these images from Puar's GP:

The purple flame
becomes crimson
and Iori uses it

I've always thought that a good ending for the KOF saga (at least on the Kyo-Iori part) would be Iori accepting his family's original powers and rejecting Orochi's. With that, the Kusanagi/Yagami feud would end peacefully, Orochi would loose the great "tactical" advantage that it means and Iori would be the first member in his family after a long time that wouldn't die at a "young" age.

Himawari chan

ain't she cute?

Stick a fork in us we're done.
-Commander Boston Low-

Radish

742th Post

Red Carpet Regular Member+

"Re(4):Character development in fighting games" , posted Sat 11 Jan 16:12

I think you are all forgeting the best example...

Felicia starts off as a freak isolated from society only to become a media sensation and then realizes she must help those who have no parents so she becomes a nun.

Toxico

2750th Post

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master

"Re(5):Character development in fighting games" , posted Sun 12 Jan 16:58

quote:
I think you are all forgeting the best example...

Felicia starts off as a freak isolated from society only to become a media sensation and then realizes she must help those who have no parents so she becomes a nun.

I believe a better example will be one of the Aero Fighters crew. Rob, Robert?? What was it.
First a big time american hero; second time a clumsy robot and on the third time a robot that disguises (if I remember correctly he disguised as Hien and got Mao Mao to declare).
I haven't player the games that come after Sonic Wings 3, but I known that there is at least one.

Mosquiton

632th Post

Red Carpet Regular Member

"somewhat off-topic... Kyo killin'!" , posted Sun 12 Jan 17:11

I'd like to see Iori kill Kyo to DEATH in the next story installment of KOF.

Then he can become a (normally) unplayable boss and they can finally lay that storyline to rest.

/ / /

Ishmael

418th Post

Gold Customer

"Re(5):Character development in fighting games" , posted Mon 13 Jan 10:06

quote:

Actually in '97 he uses the normal flames again right in the end (Sacred Forces ending). See these images from Puar's GP:

The purple flame
becomes crimson
and Iori uses it

I've always thought that a good ending for the KOF saga (at least on the Kyo-Iori part) would be Iori accepting his family's original powers and rejecting Orochi's. With that, the Kusanagi/Yagami feud would end peacefully, Orochi would loose the great "tactical" advantage that it means and Iori would be the first member in his family after a long time that wouldn't die at a "young" age.

That's right, I forgot about that 97 ending. I guess Iori forgot about it as well since he's still running around doing more or less the same act as he was back in 1995.

TiamatRoar

328th Post

Bronze Customer

"Re(1):Character development in fighting games" , posted Mon 13 Jan 10:54:

Cammy in Street Fighter Alpha 3:

First Mid-Boss battle with Dhalsim: 75% robo-speak

After Battle Dialogue with Dhalsim: 50% robo-speak.

Pre-midboss dialogue with Vega: 25% robo-speak.

After battle with Vega: 10% robo-speak... if that much.

All dialogues with Bison: No robo-speak... though her speech was a bit jarred after the battle with Bison, but that's probably more due to fatigue than anything.

After the game: Completely different character for the most part. She has two different sets of likes and dislikes in her bio, for crying out loud (one for Delta Red Cammy and one for Shadaloo Cammy)

This same development applies to Juli and Juni sorta... though it's not nearly as gradual (they speak as robots throughout the entire game until after Bison dies, then they start speaking normally)

[this message was edited by TiamatRoar on Mon 13 Jan 10:57]

Hagen de Merak

273th Post

Copper Customer

"Re(1):somewhat off-topic... Kyo killin'!" , posted Mon 13 Jan 11:41

quote:
I'd like to see Iori kill Kyo to DEATH in the next story installment of KOF.

Then he can become a (normally) unplayable boss and they can finally lay that storyline to rest.

I'd like to see them kill each other, im getting sick of them humping each other in every KOF.

Sano
31th Post

Rare Customer

"Re(2):somewhat off-topic... Kyo killin'!" , posted Tue 14 Jan 10:00

Cody's a great example of character development. He went from beleiving he was fighting for justice to realizing that he's addicted to fighting, thus being imprisoned. He knocked Belger out of the window (you can see a statue erected in his honor in the "Maybe Official" Final Fight Revenge game) and was Metro City's greatest Hero but soon realized that he was just addicted to fighting. He's not all bad since he only beats up bad guys, however.

Gen

1186th Post

Red Carpet Premium Member+

"Re(2):somewhat off-topic... Kyo killin'!" , posted Tue 14 Jan 10:33

quote:
I'd like to see Iori kill Kyo to DEATH in the next story installment of KOF.

Then he can become a (normally) unplayable boss and they can finally lay that storyline to rest.

I'd like to see them kill each other, im getting sick of them humping each other in every KOF.

Add me to the list of people that wants this story line to go somewhere instead of they just dislike each other and maybe fight once a year.

I always thought that after 97, Iori and Kyo respected each other more and maybe don't hate each other quite as much, but still don't like each other.

Radish

765th Post

Red Carpet Regular Member+

"Re(3):somewhat off-topic... Kyo killin'!" , posted Tue 14 Jan 10:45

quote:
I'd like to see Iori kill Kyo to DEATH in the next story installment of KOF.

Then he can become a (normally) unplayable boss and they can finally lay that storyline to rest.

I'd like to see them kill each other, im getting sick of them humping each other in every KOF.

Add me to the list of people that wants this story line to go somewhere instead of they just dislike each other and maybe fight once a year.

I always thought that after 97, Iori and Kyo respected each other more and maybe don't hate each other quite as much, but still don't like each other.

At least Kyo changes his clothes every once in a while. Iori has been wearing the same stuff for 10 years.

Juke Joint Jezebel

1361th Post

Red Carpet Executive Member

"Iori's a ROCK STAR!!" , posted Tue 14 Jan 16:48

quote:
I'd like to see Iori kill Kyo to DEATH in the next story installment of KOF.

Then he can become a (normally) unplayable boss and they can finally lay that storyline to rest.

I'd like to see them kill each other, im getting sick of them humping each other in every KOF.

Add me to the list of people that wants this story line to go somewhere instead of they just dislike each other and maybe fight once a year.

I always thought that after 97, Iori and Kyo respected each other more and maybe don't hate each other quite as much, but still don't like each other.

At least Kyo changes his clothes every once in a while. Iori has been wearing the same stuff for 10 years.

he needs to freakin' change into his band outfit

then and only then will i fully enjoy his Kyo-humping

justicekyo

505th Post

New Red Carpet Member

"Re(1):Iori's a ROCK STAR!!" , posted Tue 14 Jan 16:56

quote:
I'd like to see Iori kill Kyo to DEATH in the next story installment of KOF.

Then he can become a (normally) unplayable boss and they can finally lay that storyline to rest.

I'd like to see them kill each other, im getting sick of them humping each other in every KOF.

Add me to the list of people that wants this story line to go somewhere instead of they just dislike each other and maybe fight once a year.

I always thought that after 97, Iori and Kyo respected each other more and maybe don't hate each other quite as much, but still don't like each other.

At least Kyo changes his clothes every once in a while. Iori has been wearing the same stuff for 10 years.

he needs to freakin' change into his band outfit

then and only then will i fully enjoy his Kyo-humping

that almost reminds me of his Another Striker outfit.

Luisinan
182th Post

Regular Customer

"Re(2):Iori's a ROCK STAR!!" , posted Tue 14 Jan 18:31

I don't know if Iori should change his costume. It's a classic. Kyo's new look was great. It's just that it's very difficult making good designs.

A lot of Capcom & SNK designs are pretty boring, but we love them because we love the characters. Take Zangief for example, that is a very generic costume, but he's able to pull it off because we've seen Zangief so much. Well, Capcom has done a good job of giving him personality.

But anyway, I'd also like Iori to change costume. Still I think a new costume might not be that good. Kyo's old costume was very good but Iori's was better.

Grave
61th Post

Occasional Customer

"Re(3):Iori's a ROCK STAR!!" , posted Wed 15 Jan 08:59

quote:
I don't know if Iori should change his costume. It's a classic. Kyo's new look was great. It's just that it's very difficult making good designs.

A lot of Capcom & SNK designs are pretty boring, but we love them because we love the characters. Take Zangief for example, that is a very generic costume, but he's able to pull it off because we've seen Zangief so much. Well, Capcom has done a good job of giving him personality.

But anyway, I'd also like Iori to change costume. Still I think a new costume might not be that good. Kyo's old costume was very good but Iori's was better.

Well, if a new Iori costume is done right, it could be very cool. An image change for a lot of characters would help KOF in getting the refresher it needs, I think. Some people would say it's sacreligious, but I think Terry could use a new outfit, too. Maybe something along the lines of his Garou look, which always seemed to strike me as the "butch Blue Mary" look.

Kyo's white jacket outfit is awesome. It can't be easy to pull off a redesign that successful, but if they could, I'd like to see what they'd dow ith Iori.

Dr Baghead

1902th Post

Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive

"Re(2):Character development in fighting games" , posted Wed 15 Jan 10:38

quote:
Sagat is the only real example that jumps out in my mind. Every successive Street Fighter he's in, Sagat is less of a jerk and more of a rival.

They really need to make a SF3:4th Strike to complete Sagat's reforment(yes I know SF3 and the CPS3 board are done with, but let me dream!)

SF1-Gets defeated, hates Ryu
SFA/Z-Joins Bison to defeat Ryu
SFA2-Leaves Bison's ranks to train honestly
SFA3-saves Ryu and leaves with the promise of a rematch
SSF2TR-is apparently training for that rematch (and despite being the sub-boss is no long associated with Bison)

then in SF3 he could have his little rematch, and win or lose feel better about himself since he tried (and in the end that's all that matters! that you gave it your all and had fun doing so!) then he and Ryu could go get a beer.

Then Ryu could get hammered and drunkenly confess his true feelings for Ken, so BOTH of their characters would have advanced to a logical point.

s-t-e
157th Post

Regular Customer

"Re(3):Character development in fighting games" , posted Wed 15 Jan 13:37

every character from rival schools change from rival students who fight over the littlest things to friendly colleagues who fight over the littlest things.

i want all the street fighter characters to be redesigned from head to toe! i dunno how capcom will pull it off, or even attempt to try. redesigning ryu will be really difficult, you can't even give him an accessory (other than his duffel bag)!

Batsu
89th Post

Occasional Customer

"Re(4):Character development in fighting games" , posted Fri 24 Jan 09:51

quote:
every character from rival schools change from rival students who fight over the littlest things to friendly colleagues who fight over the littlest things.

i want all the street fighter characters to be redesigned from head to toe! i dunno how capcom will pull it off, or even attempt to try. redesigning ryu will be really difficult, you can't even give him an accessory (other than his duffel bag)!

Batsu, Roy, and Akira come to mind here. If they make another, I imagine Kyosuke to be on the list...otherwise, he seemed the same as the previous game.

Batsu: reunited with his mother, finally knowing who his dad is = a bit of switch up in his behavior, and the whole Kurou thing was another mess up. He still seems (understandably) distant from Raizo (this was shown more in the sim games in the imports than any of the games shown her)...

Roy: starts out hating Japan, going directly against it in his words, gradually erodes that feeling because of his experiences (MJG/PJ has no anti-Japan speech in his lines).

Akira: Well, this one's complex. The whole boy-type/girl-type dynamic, being reunited with Daigo...Akira could garner an essay.

Damn Capcom, this was the most "SNK"-like of their games...this series needs to live on.

"Get it straight or get the BOOT !"

"Sakura -- you're pathetic! ... what ? I said you absolutely SUCK !!"