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| DKW
154th Post
 
Regular Customer
   
|  "To reiterate..."
, posted Fri 20 Sep 23:25
Screenshot looks like more of the same. Well, there are a number of games I'm anticipating a helluva lot more than this one (mainly 'cause I don't have an X-box, of course), so lemme just summarize what I've said so far:
* If you're going to make a game about pretty ladies frolicking around an island (with some sport or something thrown in so there's an actual game and all), screw the pointless "as seen in that other game" garbage and fill it to the gills with as many women as you can possibly imagine. The DUMBEST thing about this game is that it's going to have a grand total of eight people. Look, nobody gives a crap what their day jobs are like. Also, let's have some variety: redheads, dark skinned, lanky, beefy, petite, what have you.
* Introducing a kinda-sorta "lesbian" (a word that gets tossed around way, way too casually these days) scene turns a potentially good, mindlessly fun T-rated game into yet another half-in half-out watered down "adult" game that's going to disappoint horribly like at least 99.99% of the crapola "adult" games out right now. I really hope these scenes get cut.
* Some of us will be expecting decent volleyball, at least on par with the other sports titles available on X-box. Best not skimp on this.
(Sigh...are we there yet?)
homepage - http://home.hawaii.rr.com/dkwff
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| Kitsune413
168th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(4):To reiterate..." , posted Sat 21 Sep 18:27
quote:
That's also from the guy who called Tekken a piece of shit for not advancing the genre but made DoA3 a carbon copy of DoA2
I play DOA3 every day, I dont' see a carbon copy. You sure you play it deeply enough to tell?
quote:
About DOA3: What disturbed me about the direction that game took... was when I read one of Itagaki's interviews before DOA3 came out. He said something to the degree of DOA2 setting the standard so well in the 3D gaming era, that DOA3 would offer nothing new game-mechanics-wise. He said that he'll let the others "catch up".
Hardly. And the competition is catching up, Tekken is still trying to do 3d arena's. It's still not doing very good at it either. VF4's walls are suspect too.
quote:
I never felt that you should let any of your competitors "catch up"... you always strive to get better every time. But that's just me.
Alot of the development for DOA3 was spent on making it more accessible to new players. I think it's a great idea, of course, if you practice alot and put alot of time into the game, you still have a great edge, but new players can still do a good job and that instant gratification makes them feel good enough to continue fighting. I think it's a great thing for fighting games, so much emphasis is placed on Depth and most people's idea of great depth is for the game to be created to where if your good enough a newbie has no chance of even scratching you. Nothing pushes a new player away from a fighter like being completely infatile against somebody. So the fact that a nobody can get into DOA and make it look good is great, because it makes them feel good about thesmelves and they can stand up to a better player. Meanwhile somebody with more time put in still has an uber advantage.
quote:
I think DOA3 may be comparable to Tekken 4, but it's leagues behind Virtua Fighter 4 in gameplay. Tecmo had a chance to solidify their engine, but felt it wasn't necessary and made more efforts to pretty up the game. I feel that was a mistake that cost them respectability as a legitimate 3D fighter (in terms of game engine).
I think it beats Vf4 out in gameplay. Thats a subjective thing. VF4 didn't really revolutionize their gameplay. VF3 didn't work for them so they took a step back to VF2, added a kumite mode and released the game. DOA's Wall game got alot better, and puts VF's to shame, the environments... well, DOA coined the phrase Environments. =P There is a reason we call them environments and not backgrounds. That eats VF up too. The forest stage for example has tons of tree's you either use to your advantage or avoid suffering from. The unveven terrain factors into the gameplay, and even the water does. You don't want to slip do you? DOA3 took all area's of DOA2 and improved them. VF4 took all area's of VF2 and improved them. I don't see much of a difference here. But as I've said, it's all subjective.
quote:
Hopefully they will make more efforts to improve the gameplay in DOA4, especially since Soul Calibur II and possibly VF4 Evolution will compete against it next year for 3D console fighters. But with such a quick deadline of Summer/Fall 2003, along with them working on Ninja Gaiden through Spring 2003, it doesn't look too promising. It'd be nice if they gave it more time to work out the kinks. Tecmo has already proven that they can make a graphically beautiful game.
Well, a big area for DOA3 was to make it more accessible to new comer's, they've done that and there is no reason to spend time on that anymore, so I'm sure DOA4 will have alot more changes to gameplay. I'm not sure if they'll be insanely noticable, DOA3's gameplay changes aren't insanely noticable. But then again, Almost no fighting game sequels have insanely noticable changes. It's always the subtle changes to an engine people love. VF4 had that. Tekken 4 has that. Every SNK game ever made has it and so does Capcom, DOA is the same way. They added enough gameplay changes to make the game fresh, new interesting and better. I can't see how any other fighting game on the planet is any different.
also...
The whole Strawberry thing isn't all that. It's a bit risky, but it's just playful and harmless.
[url=http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~nnaro/misc/020920/tgs2002_doa01.avi ]Strawberry
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| EddyT
94th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(5):To reiterate..." , posted Sun 22 Sep 02:05:
quote:
Hardly. And the competition is catching up, Tekken is still trying to do 3d arena's. It's still not doing very good at it either. VF4's walls are suspect too.
Well, AM2 wanted Virtua Fighter to go back to their roots and put in the old squared ring again. It's not because they wanted to cop out of making it graphically impressive... they just wanted the players to concentrate more on the fight. You have to worry about ringing out and getting hit into walls. Simple factors like that. No trying to hide behind trees or using outside factors to make an already-defensive game like DOA3 even more defensive. I'd rather fight than pussyfoot around.
Terrain works for Soul Calibur and DOA, but I'm glad VF sticks with what brought them to the dance in the first place.
quote:
Alot of the development for DOA3 was spent on making it more accessible to new players. I think it's a great idea, of course, if you practice alot and put alot of time into the game, you still have a great edge, but new players can still do a good job and that instant gratification makes them feel good enough to continue fighting. I think it's a great thing for fighting games, so much emphasis is placed on Depth and most people's idea of great depth is for the game to be created to where if your good enough a newbie has no chance of even scratching you. Nothing pushes a new player away from a fighter like being completely infatile against somebody. So the fact that a nobody can get into DOA and make it look good is great, because it makes them feel good about thesmelves and they can stand up to a better player. Meanwhile somebody with more time put in still has an uber advantage.
I can understand what you mean, and I respect that DOA is meant to be a more accessible game. VF4 can be a very intimidating game, but with some invested time... it can be an awarding experience. Here's my story.
I played VF4 with a bunch of pals when it hit the JPN PS2, and totally I was against the game. After losing badly that night and not picking up a single win, I kept saying to my pals how DOA was way better. I said DOA was faster and more responsive, etc.
Well, my pals were dead set on playing the game a lot during our weeknight gatherings, so I ended up buying the game for US PS2. Figured... might as well, nothing else better to do. Went through training mode for a couple weeks... was pretty intimidated by how much VF had to offer. After 2 weeks of nothing but training mode, I tried out Kumite Mode. The rewards that Kumite Mode gave me got me hooked and kept me playing. Weeks turned to months.
Now, I'm the one who can't stop talking about VF4. I've started winning much, much more often... there were even recent nights where I would have long 10+ win streaks against 6+ friends. I was able to be extremely competitive against friends who played since VF1/VF2.
I'm totally hooked on the game, and I no longer think DOA3 is the best 3D fighter I ever played. The simplicity of the DOA fighting engine was pretty glaring compared to how much more I could do in VF4.
__________
These are the things I noticed about DOA3 that paled in comparison to VF4:
I realized that having the ability to counter almost any move in DOA3 impeded my ability to flow with my offense. It really made me tentative to attack, and throws weren't high priority enough to beat people who countered/DH (part of the DOA rock-paper-scissors system: throws beating defensive holds/counters). DHs were just too quick to take advantage of. I used mainly Ayane, queen of offense, and was still sputtering to make attacks that were sustainable. VF4, simply put, offers many more offensive options and rewards offensive pressure.
DOA is too literal with the rock-paper-scissors engine. VF is much more liberal with it's own RPS. That's the big difference IMO. There are lots of counters to moves in VF4 just like DOA3. However, VF4 demands different types of countering in many different situations. VF4's RPS game keeps the fighting fresh, while DOA3's RPS makes it stagnant.
In DOA3, many moves will track you even if you try to Freestep out of the way. In VF4, you can sidestep many linear moves and either do side attacks, or crouch dash toward or away and counter-attack. Throws are also an option. However, players who abuse sidestepping can be countered by using a move that has a circular motion (like a standing roundhouse).
I feel Soul Calibur has a better 8-way run than DOA IMO because you can actually dodge attacks. DOA's Freestep is only useful for positioning around the map, but unfortunately it's only useful when the opponent is knocked to the ground and laying on the floor.
In DOA3, there were weird priorities with throws. Regular throws (Punch + Guard) were punishable, but not direction and P + G? Frustrating. Also frustrating were the multi-link throws. For example... I don't understand how Tina's multi-links can be broken so easy, and it's so hard to break Bayman's. And all you have to do is hit P + G to break out of ANY multithrow. At least in VF4, most throws are counterable, and you must hit P+G, foward and P+G... and down and P+G to get out of most possible throws (and that's hard to do). The ones that aren't throw-command-counterable (ie catch throws)... at least they can be countered by well-timed high or low strikes, or just by ducking.
Replay Value: I feel that a deep fighting engine coupled with a rewarding Kumite Mode (getting extra costumes and stages, VF1 models and quotes, and just being ranked) helped get me hooked on VF. If it wasn't for the Kumite mode, I would have lost interest earlier on. DOA3 had only a couple of secrets, a few FMVs and really poor single-player replay value. I didn't help that most of my friends didn't want to play DOA because they thought the gameplay was shallow (thus, me playing single-player all the time). I don't blame them anymore...
quote:
I think it beats Vf4 out in gameplay. Thats a subjective thing. VF4 didn't really revolutionize their gameplay. VF3 didn't work for them so they took a step back to VF2, added a kumite mode and released the game. DOA's Wall game got alot better, and puts VF's to shame, the environments... well, DOA coined the phrase Environments. =P There is a reason we call them environments and not backgrounds. That eats VF up too. The forest stage for example has tons of tree's you either use to your advantage or avoid suffering from. The unveven terrain factors into the gameplay, and even the water does. You don't want to slip do you? DOA3 took all area's of DOA2 and improved them. VF4 took all area's of VF2 and improved them. I don't see much of a difference here. But as I've said, it's all subjective.
DOA has nice environments and interactivity with them, granted. But VF4 has a much better get-up game and a much more fair usage of 3D movement. That plus the amount of options on offense and much more fair counters on defense means [better gameplay] = VF4 > DOA3 for me.
It's true VF4 didn't revolutionize gameplay as much graphically. However, it did add many more things to the engine that secured it as one of the most elaborate fight engines ever created. I think that's revolutionary in itself.
quote:
Well, a big area for DOA3 was to make it more accessible to new comer's, they've done that and there is no reason to spend time on that anymore, so I'm sure DOA4 will have alot more changes to gameplay. I'm not sure if they'll be insanely noticable, DOA3's gameplay changes aren't insanely noticable. But then again, Almost no fighting game sequels have insanely noticable changes. It's always the subtle changes to an engine people love. VF4 had that. Tekken 4 has that. Every SNK game ever made has it and so does Capcom, DOA is the same way. They added enough gameplay changes to make the game fresh, new interesting and better. I can't see how any other fighting game on the planet is any different.
Tekken 4 was incredibly different... it's almost like a new game with the environments and the "switch-places" move. VF4 is similar to VF2 in terms of ring environment, but it has evovled a significant amount with the fighting engine.
DOA3 didn't warrant enough for me to call it a true sequel either (like what someone said earlier)... I consider DOA3... DOA2 Hardcore-est. Yes, there's 3 new characters and old characters have some new moves, but the engine is practically unchanged. BGs are changed, but that doesn't impact the game much. I wouldn't mind if the game engine was great, but DOA2 needed some rehauling IMO. Most of those problems didn't get fixed in DOA3.
I'm not making unsupported claims against DOA... I have played DOA extensively since DOA1 on Saturn, and have logged many hours on DOA PS, DOA2 DC, DOA2 Limited Edition DC, DOA2 Hardcore PS2 and DOA3. I played much more DOA than VF, even to this day and maybe for years to come.
I still love the DOA series, but now I just like it because of the characters. Gameplay-wise it just doesn't satisfy me anymore. But I do owe it to DOA... it was the training wheels that gave me the ability to play 3D games in the first place. I hated Tekken and VF before that, and DOA was more my speed at the time. I seem to have outgrown the wheels now, but I still respect DOA as a series that is better than most. I still feel it's not as broken as Tekken 4.
At least, I'm not taking the fanboy approach, claiming VF4 is better because "all the reviewers say so" or because "DOA is nothing but a game for otakus who drool over boobs... play a real man's game". I played both games extensively, and found out through hard research that I appeal to VF4 more. Can't say I didn't do my research, so my conversion to VF4 is a little more admirable that way I suppose.
In conclusion, I still like DOA. But VF4 was so well done, it made me a converted believer in AM2 instead of Team Ninja. It'll be tough for Tecmo to convince me that DOA is solid as a fighter. I know they're capable of beautiful graphics... but I want to see if they're really serious on making the DOA fighting engine evolve into a greater game. Let's hope DOA4 will be a different animal, not a better-looking DOA2 animal with added stripes.
Jeezus, sorry the post is so long.
[this message was edited by EddyT on Sun 22 Sep 03:44] |
| Kitsune413
171th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(6):To reiterate..." , posted Sun 22 Sep 11:44:
quote:
Did he really say that? I remember reading something a while back that the DOA guy had trouble with the backgrounds and wall detection or something like that and asked AM2 for help
Thats bullshit. More anti-DOA propoganda. If Yu Suzuki helped Itagaki out with wall detection then why is it that DOA has better wall detection and collision detection than VF?
quote:
I am pretty sure by now that AM2 knows that VF is never going to be a extremely game among the American audience, but in Japan I believe it is THE most played Fighter. I think VF3 constantly stayed at the top of the arcade list till early to mid 2000.
VF3 was crap. I was a huge VF2 fan and I absolutely abhored VF3.
quote:
Graphics looked pretty much the same, stages had no improvement, gameplay didn't seem any more refined, tag-mode still played like an after thought, there were like 3 hidden things despite everyone complaining about such in DoA2, story mode still lacked a story, boss was still retarded...
You should take the bag off your head, The graphics are hardly the same. It may not have been the DOA1 to DOA2 leap, but DOA2 looked so good that you can't expect that kind of leap in quality again. Back when it was DOA1, if you added 1,000 poly's it dramatically changed the way the character looked, now if you add 1,000 poly's it just makes them look a bit rounder.
quote:
Well, AM2 wanted Virtua Fighter to go back to their roots and put in the old squared ring again. It's not because they wanted to cop out of making it graphically impressive... they just wanted the players to concentrate more on the fight. You have to worry about ringing out and getting hit into walls. Simple factors like that. No trying to hide behind trees or using outside factors to make an already-defensive game like DOA3 even more defensive. I'd rather fight than pussyfoot around.
I'd want to go back to my roots too if when I tried to branch out (Vf3) it was an absolute disaster. Whatever the PR was, whatever Yu Suzuki said the reason was, they went back because VF3 just didn't work out. I can't imagine how putting them on a square matt makes you think more about the fight. Thats like saying if I put two fighters in a closet it would be alot more strategic than if they were fighting in a forest, which simply isn't true. Hiding behind tree's and using outside factor's adds strategy. But omre than that, where did you get the idea that DOA was a defensive game? It just sounds like your awful at DOA to me. Pussyfoot around? DOA is probably the most aggressive game around simply because rather than sitting there and turtling, if somebody is attacking you, you can reverse it and hurt them seriously.
quote:
I realized that having the ability to counter almost any move in DOA3 impeded my ability to flow with my offense. It really made me tentative to attack, and throws weren't high priority enough to beat people who countered/DH (part of the DOA rock-paper-scissors system: throws beating defensive holds/counters). DHs were just too quick to take advantage of. I used mainly Ayane, queen of offense, and was still sputtering to make attacks that were sustainable. VF4, simply put, offers many more offensive options and rewards offensive pressure.
You were supposed to be tentative to attack, The ability to counter any move in the game is what keeps you from doing the same move over and over again. However, if your intelligent and mix up the attack heights you have, then you can slide past their counters and defenses and continue to hurt them. If you can't do that, it just means you didn't know your character well enough to do it. The fact that you speak of DOA like a rock paper scissors game just tells me that you bought into the hype and believe it, It also tells me that your totally awful at the game...
DOA is rock paper scissors right. So lets say that Rock is strikes and paper is counters... That means if you counter, and I attack, you always win. So what if I hit high and you counter mid? In What world does Rock ever beat Paper? It doesn't. DOA is no more Rock Paper Scissors than VF4, in fact, if anything, it's more complicated. Since not everybody in VF has the option to counter that means that VF has less depth. VF, everybody can attack and everybody can throw... in DOA everybody can attack, ,throw and counter. Thats more options. So lets say we add in blocking, Then VF has Block, Attack, Throw, and DOA has Block, Attack, Counter, Throw. So if anything, VF is rock paper scissors and DOA isn't.
DOA has more offensive options and alot more offensive pressure. In every situation, you have the option of hurting your opponent, If your good. It just sounds like your terrible at DOA to me.
quote:
DOA is too literal with the rock-paper-scissors engine. VF is much more liberal with it's own RPS. That's the big difference IMO. There are lots of counters to moves in VF4 just like DOA3. However, VF4 demands different types of countering in many different situations. VF4's RPS game keeps the fighting fresh, while DOA3's RPS makes it stagnant.
Like I said, it just shows you didn't know how to play DOA. DOA has many different types of counters in many different situations. In my opinion, VF4 has less options per character, so in the end, it keeps the fighting stagnant while DOA's constant thinking and constant shifting your strategy becuase the character learns your moves and learns how to counter them makes it constantly fresh. You always have to change in DOA, nothing always works.
quote:
In DOA3, many moves will track you even if you try to Freestep out of the way. In VF4, you can sidestep many linear moves and either do side attacks, or crouch dash toward or away and counter-attack. Throws are also an option. However, players who abuse sidestepping can be countered by using a move that has a circular motion (like a standing roundhouse).
In DOA any move that has a circular motions (like a standing roundhouse) takes you out of the free step. Also, in DOA, if you free step you will dodge the opponents attacks as long as they're not circular, in DOA, rather than the character moving forward in a straight line like an idiot, they actually move to attack you... hmm. Not attacking Thin Air... yeah.. that makes sense. Free Stepping gives you alot of options in DOA.
quote:
I feel Soul Calibur has a better 8-way run than DOA IMO because you can actually dodge attacks. DOA's Freestep is only useful for positioning around the map, but unfortunately it's only useful when the opponent is knocked to the ground and laying on the floor.
If you were better at DOA you'd be able to dodge moves with the free step, free stepping is important to my strategy. Like I said, if you were better at DOA, you'd probably be better at free stepping and learn when you can and can't use it. This is more of a sign of your lack of knowledge of the game engine than a flaw with the game.
quote:
In DOA3, there were weird priorities with throws. Regular throws (Punch + Guard) were punishable, but not direction and P + G? Frustrating. Also frustrating were the multi-link throws. For example... I don't understand how Tina's multi-links can be broken so easy, and it's so hard to break Bayman's. And all you have to do is hit P + G to break out of ANY multithrow. At least in VF4, most throws are counterable, and you must hit P+G, foward and P+G... and down and P+G to get out of most possible throws (and that's hard to do). The ones that aren't throw-command-counterable (ie catch throws)... at least they can be countered by well-timed high or low strikes, or just by ducking.
You can only break regular throws, standing throws. Also, Tina's multi links aren't easier to break than Bayman's, Anybody who knows the timing to Tina's throws can get them off most of the time, same way with Bayman. So what you really need to do is spend more time with the character who's throw your trying to perform and learn the timing.
quote:
Replay Value: I feel that a deep fighting engine coupled with a rewarding Kumite Mode (getting extra costumes and stages, VF1 models and quotes, and just being ranked) helped get me hooked on VF. If it wasn't for the Kumite mode, I would have lost interest earlier on. DOA3 had only a couple of secrets, a few FMVs and really poor single-player replay value. I didn't help that most of my friends didn't want to play DOA because they thought the gameplay was shallow (thus, me playing single-player all the time). I don't blame them anymore...
I grew up with games like Street Fighter and Kof, I don't need cute extra's to make a fighting game good to me. I play with my friends, My friends are very good players. The fact is that you only played Single Player, you didn't have the chance to evolve like somebody who actually has competition and you didn't have to learn different strategies. You never learned that throws are great ways to punish people who counter to much, how to mix up attack heights to avoid being countered, or how blocking is better than countering in some situations. You never learned characters timing throws and you also never figured out the intracacies of the free step engine. Your friends were stupid and believed the hype, so they missed out on the game, your also believing the hype and thinking DOA is shallow.
The truth of the matter is that you like VF4 because you don't have to mix up attack heights as much, you also don't have to think as much, the side stepping is easier and takes less thought. You don't have to out think your opponent as much and since you don't have to worry about everybody being able to counter your moves and having to mix it up, it seems better to you because you are far more effective, when the truth of the matter is that it's just easier.
So the fact is that you think it's more deep because it has less strategy and less options. You never really learned DOA and you can claim that this game is better. Though, if your friends are too stupid to do anything but believe hype and won't play you in DOA, there is no reason to go back, because fighting computer's isn't very entertaining.
quote:
DOA has nice environments and interactivity with them, granted. But VF4 has a much better get-up game and a much more fair usage of 3D movement. That plus the amount of options on offense and much more fair counters on defense means [better gameplay] = VF4 > DOA3 for me.
All your saying is that you prefer VF because you don't get countered every five seconds because you never learned how to defeat an opponent in DOA who countered. It's like saying you hate King of Fighter's because quarter rolls are difficult to do. It has nothing to do with the game but just with a general lack of skill.
quote:
It's true VF4 didn't revolutionize gameplay as much graphically. However, it did add many more things to the engine that secured it as one of the most elaborate fight engines ever created. I think that's revolutionary in itself.
It fixed up VF2's engine. It didn't revolutionize anything other than the Survival Mode. Kumite is great for a guy with no friends. You just bought into hype like everybody else.
quote:
In conclusion, I still like DOA. But VF4 was so well done, it made me a converted believer in AM2 instead of Team Ninja. It'll be tough for Tecmo to convince me that DOA is solid as a fighter. I know they're capable of beautiful graphics... but I want to see if they're really serious on making the DOA fighting engine evolve into a greater game. Let's hope DOA4 will be a different animal, not a better-looking DOA2 animal with added stripes.
In conclusion, as an old hardcore VF player, I played VF2 to death and still think it's a great game, I also think that VF4 is a great game, I still like VF, But I feel that DOA Kicks it in the teeth. Tecmo can't convincee you that DOA is a solid fighter because you see things skewed. for example you seem to think the counter engine is a bad thing and never learned ways to get around it or how it adds to the gameplay. The DOA fighting engine evolved with DOA3, things like the Wall game have greatly improved, movement has improved, attacking has improved.
I'd love to see an improvement in the VF4... not a better looking VF2 with added stripes.
**********
Anyways, I don't want you to be offended by my post, But seriously, I play DOA tons and against very good players. We've moved past area's where alot of people get stuck on DOA, like quitting because there friend counters them for being repetitive rather than mixing up their attacks. So I deal with these kinds of psots every day and eventually you grow jaded. Your a smart guy and a nice guy. So don't be insulted. But still, There is alot more to DOA than you've encountered and it's really too bad that your friends listen to to many VF and Tekken fanboys and think the game is shallow when it's not. It's a different kind of game and needs to be played differently.
[this message was edited by Kitsune413 on Sun 22 Sep 11:56] |
| EddyT
95th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(8):To reiterate..." , posted Mon 23 Sep 00:48:
Kitsune: Nah, I'm not offended at all. You do bring up good points about DOA, and I do know that the three types of counters make it a little harder to successfully counter most moves. I wish it still had arcade counters, though. It made it more challenging that way. It was nice for Tecmo to lower the damage of Defensive Holds, and it gives more incentive to do the Critical DHs at the very last second.
I also liked how some characters forced you to be wary of utilizing certain strikes. For example, mid-kicks against Ayane is risky, because her DH can toss you up to do the 80+ damage combo (I think it was dash foward, P,P,d/b+P X 2 and end with kick). I think it reaches 100 if it's a crit DH.
I'm hoping that DHs have just a liiiiittle more lag in DOA4... so people who DH too much can be punished a lot more. That, and the return of arcade counters would be cool with me. I still hope they would work on a different system on countering throws as well.
I had a pretty high-powered Ayane, and loved to start off combos using the DHs that throw people up in the air, abuse the drill kick or the back + Free + Kick (the handstand spin kick that caused the back double-over). She was, by far, the most fun character I've played in a 3D fighter. Ayane was extremely fluid to use. I played Tina and Bass a lot, too... but I wasn't good with them because of their slower speed.
You are right about me not having the chance to play others as much in the game. That is why I wasn't able to enjoy DOA3 as much as I would have, had any of my friends a.) owned an XBox, or b.) hadn't had the bias about the game in general to refuse to play it. I admit a lot of my friends have jaded views on the game, and I was one of the few who gave it a chance. I still play it once in a while, but until DOAX comes out... I don't have any reason to play it.
I still think having more incentive to play single player is important to a fighter... because it does help when you play against real people. That, and since I didn't know anyone who played DOA, I had no choice but to only enjoy what single-player mode had to offer. A lot of games don't go the extra mile to accomodate both Versus and Single.
I've played it a lot to support my judgement that VF4 is better than DOA3... but that's mainly because VF4 fits my mentality of fighting a lot more. I don't think it's bad for either you or I to express why we like our respective games more. It makes for interesting chatter, and I'm mature enough not to insist "I'm right and you're wrong". I have always felt that DOA was underrated as a fighting engine... it's a lot better than people think it is. I'd rather play that game than Tekken 4 or any Capcom or SNK 3D fighter.
And at least I agree with you... that VF3 was total, utter crap. Easily the worst VF game ever made.
[this message was edited by EddyT on Mon 23 Sep 00:57] |
| Makatiel
112th Post
Regular Customer
| "hope you guys dont mind me stepping in" , posted Mon 23 Sep 03:34
Kitsune:
Since not everybody in VF has the option to counter that means that VF has less depth. VF, everybody can attack and everybody can throw... in DOA everybody can attack, ,throw and counter. Thats more options. So lets say we add in blocking, Then VF has Block, Attack, Throw, and DOA has Block, Attack, Counter, Throw. So if anything, VF is rock paper scissors and DOA isn't.
you forgot evade attacks in vf which barely exist in doa.
depth is a complicated issue. one could argue that doa has more depth because each character has more options (all chars have low throws and counters etc.) or one could argue that by making all the characters have similar options, you make the game as a whole much much simpler (you can do the same things with every character and be more or less successful) - and therefore less deep. vf's complexity comes from the need to study and play each character almost totally differently. this also exists in doa (especially with additions like brad), but to a lesser extent.
its much harder in vf to adapt to a different character than it is in doa. in doa, you know that you can counter any mid attack that comes at you no matter which character throws it, no matter what kind of mid attack it is, punch or kick. vf reversals (and there are many many reversals in vf - i think its silly of doa players to argue that vf lacks depth because not every player has a reversal - when you include sabaki attacks i cant even think of a player who doesnt have a counter - jacky and lau maybe?) are much more situation specific and hence lead to more complexity and depth, not less.
Kitsune:
In DOA any move that has a circular motions (like a standing roundhouse) takes you out of the free step. Also, in DOA, if you free step you will dodge the opponents attacks as long as they're not circular, in DOA, rather than the character moving forward in a straight line like an idiot, they actually move to attack you... hmm. Not attacking Thin Air... yeah.. that makes sense. Free Stepping gives you alot of options in DOA.
the logic here is not clear. first you state that free stepping with evade non-circular attacks. i agree. however because the tracking in doa is much better in doa it makes freestepping much less useful as a option. whether or not this game mechanic makes sense is of no relevance (as floating has never made any sense to me). freestepping works fine against fast single attacks that do not lead into combos (and not even always), but within a fast paced game where canned combos are used more often, countering is a much more rewarding and easier option (especially when you know the branches and likelihood of each combo string). this almost totally cancels out freestepping as an effective manuever for anything except positioning. it is not clear to me how FS gives you "a lot of options."
Kitsune:
If you were better at DOA you'd be able to dodge moves with the free step, free stepping is important to my strategy. Like I said, if you were better at DOA, you'd probably be better at free stepping and learn when you can and can't use it. This is more of a sign of your lack of knowledge of the game engine than a flaw with the game.
just a non-sequitur comment - this kind of argument - "you just suck" adds very little to the discussion.
Kitsune:
The truth of the matter is that you like VF4 because you don't have to mix up attack heights as much, you also don't have to think as much, the side stepping is easier and takes less thought. You don't have to out think your opponent as much and since you don't have to worry about everybody being able to counter your moves and having to mix it up, it seems better to you because you are far more effective, when the truth of the matter is that it's just easier.
i think i agree that sidestepping takes less thought than countering in doa (you still have to watch out for circular attacks and throws). however doas reversals are much looser and require less reaction time than evading in vf. it balances out in my opinion.
Kitsune:
So the fact is that you think it's more deep because it has less strategy and less options. You never really learned DOA and you can claim that this game is better. Though, if your friends are too stupid to do anything but believe hype and won't play you in DOA, there is no reason to go back, because fighting computer's isn't very entertaining.
this is another thing about all game players that annoys me. why do people automatically think that if you find faults with a game, then its because you havent played it enough? just because one finds the vf engine or the doa engine superior doesnt mean that one hasnt played it "enough." ive played it enough - i just think its not as good.
Kitsune:
It fixed up VF2's engine. It didn't revolutionize anything other than the Survival Mode. Kumite is great for a guy with no friends. You just bought into hype like everybody else.
actually, with the numerous additions of new properties and abilities (sabakis, stuns, crumbles,low flops, high flops, tech rolling, evade attacks, weight issues, wall bounces, holds (like vanessas), guard crumbling, etc.) i feel like vf has added more to the game than any other series' sequel. and with evolution's new grappling system, it gets even more complicated.
Kitsune:
In conclusion, as an old hardcore VF player, I played VF2 to death and still think it's a great game, I also think that VF4 is a great game, I still like VF, But I feel that DOA Kicks it in the teeth. Tecmo can't convincee you that DOA is a solid fighter because you see things skewed. for example you seem to think the counter engine is a bad thing and never learned ways to get around it or how it adds to the gameplay. The DOA fighting engine evolved with DOA3, things like the Wall game have greatly improved, movement has improved, attacking has improved.
how has attacking improved?
Kitsune:
I'd love to see an improvement in the VF4... not a better looking VF2 with added stripes.
see comment about new properties being added.
my own personal thoughts:
vf suits me better.
doa is a fantastic game. anyone who looks down on doa is a moron. but im also suspicious of people who think doa is "clearly" a better game than vf.
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| Kitsune413
172th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(1):hope you guys dont mind me stepping in" , posted Mon 23 Sep 09:46
quote:
Kitsune: Nah, I'm not offended at all. You do bring up good points about DOA, and I do know that the three types of counters make it a little harder to successfully counter most moves. I wish it still had arcade counters, though. It made it more challenging that way. It was nice for Tecmo to lower the damage of Defensive Holds, and it gives more incentive to do the Critical DHs at the very last second.
Gen Fu, Bayman, Kasumi and Leifang have advanced counters, if you want to be a bit more challenged. heh.
quote:
I'm hoping that DHs have just a liiiiittle more lag in DOA4... so people who DH too much can be punished a lot more. That, and the return of arcade counters would be cool with me. I still hope they would work on a different system on countering throws as well.
They have plenty of lag in DOA3. It's to keep the game fast paced, anymore lag than what they have now would be a rediculously long time to be standing in one place with your hands out in my opinion. It already gives you enough time to run up and throw them. If you throw someone who has their hands out like that you get a hi-counter throw and it does 50% more damage than usual. So, use your strongest throw. heh. They won't counter as much.
quote:
I had a pretty high-powered Ayane, and loved to start off combos using the DHs that throw people up in the air, abuse the drill kick or the back + Free + Kick (the handstand spin kick that caused the back double-over). She was, by far, the most fun character I've played in a 3D fighter. Ayane was extremely fluid to use. I played Tina and Bass a lot, too... but I wasn't good with them because of their slower speed.
If you got countered to much playing Ayane you should have learned to delay your attacks. Every character in DOA has moves where they don't have to immediately follow it up and can hang on for a second, but Gen Fu, Helena and Ayane for example are three characters who actually rely on it. For all three of them if you hold out on hitting the button again immediately you can confuse your opponent into countering at the wrong time and continue your combo.
quote:
You are right about me not having the chance to play others as much in the game. That is why I wasn't able to enjoy DOA3 as much as I would have, had any of my friends a.) owned an XBox, or b.) hadn't had the bias about the game in general to refuse to play it. I admit a lot of my friends have jaded views on the game, and I was one of the few who gave it a chance. I still play it once in a while, but until DOAX comes out... I don't have any reason to play it.
It's really to bad that there is such a bias against DOA. VF fanboys and Tekken fanboys all have an extreme bias against the game and can't even see past the pretty girls. How idiotic is that? Pretty superficial. A game has the prettiest girls in the gaming world and all of a sudden the rest of it must suck right? Following that train of thought, all of the best games must suck. =P Square and Konami beware!
If your friends weren't so biased maybe you'd have seen DOA's real depth.
quote:
I still think having more incentive to play single player is important to a fighter... because it does help when you play against real people. That, and since I didn't know anyone who played DOA, I had no choice but to only enjoy what single-player mode had to offer. A lot of games don't go the extra mile to accomodate both Versus and Single.
Won't help you as much in DOA as it will in something where being great at the moves or where a certain series of attacks is always pretty effective. In DOA the moves really aren't hard to do. Most people think thats a bad thing, but in the end, it puts you and everybody else on an equal playing field. Your friend can do his moves without problems, you can do your moves without problems, so in the end it all comes down to strategy and anticipating your opponent. I prefer that. My friends are good at videogames, so when I win at Kof, I'm not winning because I'm fighting weak opponents who can't do the controls, it's pretty much an equal playing field. DOA is an equal playing field as well and I don't need to fight weak opponents to win, I'll just have to be the better fighter and be quicker on my feet.
quote:
I've played it a lot to support my judgement that VF4 is better than DOA3... but that's mainly because VF4 fits my mentality of fighting a lot more. I don't think it's bad for either you or I to express why we like our respective games more. It makes for interesting chatter, and I'm mature enough not to insist "I'm right and you're wrong". I have always felt that DOA was underrated as a fighting engine... it's a lot better than people think it is. I'd rather play that game than Tekken 4 or any Capcom or SNK 3D fighter.
Parts of DOA can only be enjoyed with really intelligent and good opposition. On the other hand, I think that DOA is easily the most frustrating fighting game ever created. When your friends either know the moves your going to do, or can anticipate them anyways, when you can't counter their strikes, their hits all slide past their counters, wehn they throw you when your countering and strike you when your throwing... hah. it can be one of the most nerve racking things ever, I don't think there is any other game that can shut you out so totally, or be so frustrating to you when it does. I guess it just hurts to be outsmarted.
quote:
And at least I agree with you... that VF3 was total, utter crap. Easily the worst VF game ever made.
I hate that game. heh. I was so dissapointed. VF2 is still my favorite VF game.
quote:
you forgot evade attacks in vf which barely exist in doa.
Yes, I did, but the truth of the matter is that DOA's 8 way step will allow you to avoid any straight forward attacks first blow and give you time to deal with the opponent before their tracking turns on you. So it's kind of a touchy subject.
quote:
depth is a complicated issue. one could argue that doa has more depth because each character has more options (all chars have low throws and counters etc.) or one could argue that by making all the characters have similar options, you make the game as a whole much much simpler (you can do the same things with every character and be more or less successful) - and therefore less deep. vf's complexity comes from the need to study and play each character almost totally differently. this also exists in doa (especially with additions like brad), but to a lesser extent.
Thats simply because the controls for the characters are easier in DOA. They're harder to do in VF so it takes more time to learn each character. However, I've memorized all of my main characters attacks in DOA, which isn't as easy as people make it seem. People seem to think that going through sparring mode once or learning half the characters moves and having used the rest in sparring mode, but not really ever thinking of using those moves in battle is learning the character. Which is obviously wrong. To learn all the moves and to be able to know when to use them in battle takes a long time. But the emphasis isn't placed on that. In DOA, since there is a counter for every type of move, it will get to the point to where your opponent will have memorized your attacks and those attacks will no longer really be functional and you'll have to use different tactics to get those moves to hit. It's just a difference in gameplay.
Arguing depth would be a long and pointless affair, people have been arguing a word that has no real definition for years now and in the end they never agree.
quote:
its much harder in vf to adapt to a different character than it is in doa. in doa, you know that you can counter any mid attack that comes at you no matter which character throws it, no matter what kind of mid attack it is, punch or kick. vf reversals (and there are many many reversals in vf - i think its silly of doa players to argue that vf lacks depth because not every player has a reversal - when you include sabaki attacks i cant even think of a player who doesnt have a counter - jacky and lau maybe?) are much more situation specific and hence lead to more complexity and depth, not less.
I think it's silly that a VF player would argue depth because half of their characters have a certain kind of move and the other half doesn't. Well, not every character in DOA can jump off walls, so I guess that means characters who have this ability are more situation specific and lead to more complexicty and depth, not less. (I know Vf characters can jump off walls as well, but it's a similar argument.)
quote:
the logic here is not clear. first you state that free stepping with evade non-circular attacks. i agree. however because the tracking in doa is much better in doa it makes freestepping much less useful as a option. whether or not this game mechanic makes sense is of no relevance (as floating has never made any sense to me). freestepping works fine against fast single attacks that do not lead into combos (and not even always), but within a fast paced game where canned combos are used more often, countering is a much more rewarding and easier option (especially when you know the branches and likelihood of each combo string). this almost totally cancels out freestepping as an effective manuever for anything except positioning. it is not clear to me how FS gives you "a lot of options."
Only if your not a good player, Free stepping is a very important option, as you said, it will let you completely avoid those fast single attacks that miss and have high lag, you can punish those people, for the people using canned combo's, you will usually avoid the first hit or two, so it's just important that you hit them before they hit you at that point. This doesn't make it any less viable of an option, It just means you have to have better timing. Some could argue that that in itself adds depth. But since Depth has no definition regarding anything other than fluids, it could probably be argued the other way. Thats the problem with fighting game depth, If you ask ten people, none of them will have the same definition of that word. Thats why arguing it is useless.
quote:
just a non-sequitur comment - this kind of argument - "you just suck" adds very little to the discussion.
Hardly, The free step engine is very useful in certain situations. A player with the knowledge on how to use it can use it better.
http://www.dfwcreative.com/dfwgames/doa3/QfaqDocs/SidesteppingandSideEvasionQfaq.htm
That might help you, but for the most part you'll just have to try it out and learn for yourself.
quote:
this is another thing about all game players that annoys me. why do people automatically think that if you find faults with a game, then its because you havent played it enough? just because one finds the vf engine or the doa engine superior doesnt mean that one hasnt played it "enough." ive played it enough - i just think its not as good.
Because those faults exist within' you and not the game itself. I've played VF enough, I just think it's not as good.
quote:
actually, with the numerous additions of new properties and abilities (sabakis, stuns, crumbles,low flops, high flops, tech rolling, evade attacks, weight issues, wall bounces, holds (like vanessas), guard crumbling, etc.) i feel like vf has added more to the game than any other series' sequel. and with evolution's new grappling system, it gets even more complicated.
1. 4 new characters
Christie -> Snake Fist
Hitomi -> Karate
Brad Wong -> Drunken Kung Fu
Hayate -> Ninjitsu
2. New moves + Tag throws
3. New arenas + new Tag arenas
4. Reduced counter hold damage
5. Increase counter delay (You can't counter repeatedly)
6. Advanced counters (Using arcade counters for some characters)
7. Greatly improved sidestepping
8. Air throws for some characters
9. Ground throws for some characters
10. Death is now possible from fall damage
11. Different stun properties for moves
12. More sloped terrain too, with deeper slopes, allowing for more damaging juggles
13. A wall stun that they can't DH out of, enabling you to get a free hit in
14. Many knockdown moves now flip over in air juggles, giving the aggressor more time for strategic placement after knockdowns, or even free down attacks since the opponent can't techroll after the flipover
15. There are alot more high/mid/low mixups in strings
16. The basic movement is different, d and u and u/b initiate free movement instead of ducking/jumping, this combined with motion tracking that isn't as good as doa2 means you can actually sidestep quite a bit of oncoming attacks
17. No arcade holds option, except for lei-fang and bayman
18. More environment effects such as snow covered ground practically changing the whole juggle/stun/fighting engine.
You see more in VF where I see the same game. I see more in DOA3 where other people see the same game. All of it's very subtle affects only a person who delves deep into the game would notice. VF just has more delvers.
quote:
doa is a fantastic game. anyone who looks down on doa is a moron. but im also suspicious of people who think doa is "clearly" a better game than vf.
Most people don't know Jack about DOA. Defending it from a horde of fanboys that have been programmed by VF and Tekken fanboys is difficult and gets you jaded. I think VF4 is a great game and I think the VF series (other than VF3) is a great series. In the end, the best fighter is always going to be subjective, like Pepsi and Coke. So the better one really lies in the individual. I'm glad to see you at least respect DOA for a fighting game and aren't the superficial idiot I run into every day.
But just like somebody who's had both Pepsi and Coke, I have a favorite and to me DOA is "Clearly" a better game. That hardly makes VF a bad game. As I said, very subjective.
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| EddyT
95th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(2):hope you guys dont mind me stepping in" , posted Mon 23 Sep 14:25
Kitsune: I read the 8-way FAQ... I'm interested in trying that out soon.
In terms of delayed combos, I did that once in a while with Ayane. I ended up changing my offense to get double-over stuns into launches. If I remember correctly, I had problems finding a single move with her besides her mid-kick DH to launch people in the air (which equals guaranteed combo if done). I'd have to play it again to see what I had problems with.
I think that's why I liked VF4 better when it came to offense... I didn't have to stutter and impede my moves and combos as much. I play Sarah all the time, and with her, it's required to stay aggressive all the time and use Flamingo stance whenever the chance is given. I really appeal to using "rushdown" tactics (a coined-phrase for Street Fighter players, which is what I am at heart). The DOA universal counters (which are now unfortunately lots easier to do in DOA3) kept me in check from attacking with normal strikes nearly as much.
DHs would be a lot less effective if more characters had a more even balance of high, mid and low attacks. For example (this is not intended to be accurate), if Kasumi had a lot higher ratio of high attacks, a mediocre amount of mid attacks, and very few low attacks in her arsenal... the opponent would easily concentrate on using high DHs to limit the person's offense. I remember at least in DOA2, Kasumi had wayyyy too many similar level attacks that resulted in strategies like these.
I liked the added ground and air throws with Bass and Tina a lot. It was a welcome addition that definitely made them more versatile in offense. Now, they share more things in common with Bayman/Leon. I still stayed away from most multi-throws against human opponents, though. It's still too easy for them to break out of it.
I hope DOA4 has more for get-up games. I liked VF4's approach of hitting P+K+G or holding up or down and P+K+G during floor impact. It's hard to do it 100% of the time, and it makes you pay more attention when you're being juggled (instead of giving up hope and waiting to hit the ground)... but it's a great way to recover and set up defense again. I like how you can also avoid some throw damage from landing on the ground (like Wolf's Giant Swing).
I'm personally excited about VF4 Evolution and DOA4. Hoping those games come out nice.
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| Hungrywolf 1541th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
    
    
    
| "Re(1):Just a few words..." , posted Tue 24 Sep 12:07
quote:
DoAXV is one of my top 10 MUST HAVE games right now.
I agree with Kitsune on A LOT of things about DoA3...I'm glad there are others like myself that see the true depth in that game.
I'm a huge DOA fan myself, at least of 2 and 3 (I have played the first and well, it was a little odd, if you have seen it, you know why the breasts are odd in it). I do think the graphics from 2 to 3 aren't a big leap, but I agree with what Kitsune said about it, 2 was very good, and they couldn't improve the visuals too much more. The environments in 3 were completely different though, and were much better than the ones in 2, which were good. I think 3 was a different game. X-box does have some games I want, and with Ninja Gaiden coming to it, I wish I had more access to one. But I still love my GCN more.
"Someday we'll find it the rainbow connection..." -Kermit The Muppet Movie
Hungry Like the Wolf
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| Kitsune413
174th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(1):Just a few words..." , posted Wed 25 Sep 07:28
hehe, sorry, been gone for a day or two.
quote:
im glad that we can simply agree to disagree. one thing that you said strikes me very deeply though (in a good way). vf does have more "delvers." i wish doa had the same kind of respect.
DOA4 is supposed to hit arcades (most likely on Sega's new Chochiro arcade hardware) So maybe we'll make a little headway, though I can see DOA X pushing us back a bit. heh. The stigma from DOA1 is still around.
quote:
I think that's why I liked VF4 better when it came to offense... I didn't have to stutter and impede my moves and combos as much. I play Sarah all the time, and with her, it's required to stay aggressive all the time and use Flamingo stance whenever the chance is given. I really appeal to using "rushdown" tactics (a coined-phrase for Street Fighter players, which is what I am at heart). The DOA universal counters (which are now unfortunately lots easier to do in DOA3) kept me in check from attacking with normal strikes nearly as much.
Yeah, it's hard. I play extremely aggressively with my characters, so I understand what you mean. It takes alot of practice to be able to be aggressive with them and not be countered. Though each of them has something to help them get them through. My two best are Hayate and Helena, Hayate has more stuns and launchers than anybody else in the game I think, and Helena can delay her moves, so using those two techniques I'm able to be very aggressive with my two main characters without being countered as much... though, countering is really a part of DOA, if you play a match and you don't get countered if your striking it alot, it means your either doing really great your opposition isn't doing their job! ^__^
quote:
DHs would be a lot less effective if more characters had a more even balance of high, mid and low attacks. For example (this is not intended to be accurate), if Kasumi had a lot higher ratio of high attacks, a mediocre amount of mid attacks, and very few low attacks in her arsenal... the opponent would easily concentrate on using high DHs to limit the person's offense. I remember at least in DOA2, Kasumi had wayyyy too many similar level attacks that resulted in strategies like these.
Yes, every character has a level they seem to prefer to hit in. Kasumi hits high most of the time, So does Ayane, characters like Hayate and Helena typically hit mid. So it can be pretty tough to get off alot of their normal combo's, you have to be very tricky! ^_^
quote:
I hope DOA4 has more for get-up games. I liked VF4's approach of hitting P+K+G or holding up or down and P+K+G during floor impact. It's hard to do it 100% of the time, and it makes you pay more attention when you're being juggled (instead of giving up hope and waiting to hit the ground)... but it's a great way to recover and set up defense again. I like how you can also avoid some throw damage from landing on the ground (like Wolf's Giant Swing).
In DOA if you hit any button the moment you hit the ground you tech roll back up to your feet. Well, for most attacks done against you. Some attacks you can't tech roll out of and sometimes it wouldn't make particular sense for your character to be able too.
quote:
DoAXV is one of my top 10 MUST HAVE games right now.
I agree with Kitsune on A LOT of things about DoA3...I'm glad there are others like myself that see the true depth in that game.
Shin, Freeter and Hungry Wolf give me hope for DOA in the world. ^___^
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| EddyT
99th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(4):Just a few words..." , posted Wed 25 Sep 13:02:
quote:
In DOA if you hit any button the moment you hit the ground you tech roll back up to your feet. Well, for most attacks done against you. Some attacks you can't tech roll out of and sometimes it wouldn't make particular sense for your character to be able too.
You could only tech-roll one way, right? From what I remember, you couldn't tech-roll towards or away from the screen, or away from the opponent. And if I can remember... you weren't able to mash buttons when you were down to get up faster, were you?
I also hope in DOA4, when you are knocked on the ground, you could have hi, mid and low get-ups. Just to have as more options.
I liked the method in VF4 that you could use... where when you got up, you can hit Punch and Guard... and then hold guard. This way, if someone tried to throw you, it would be countered. But if someone tried to strike you, you could guard it. Dunno if DOA3 has that, but I thought that was another great addition to VF4's get-up schemes.
A good example was when I played a friend who was a Jeffry player. He would use a high-priority move to knock me down so hard, that I would hit the ground immediately and couldn't soft-land (P+K+G). He would then pick me up, and set me up for either a knee or a throw.
After much frustration, he told me how to get out of it. The first knockdown and OTG grab (off-the-ground) was guaranteed, but after the OTG, you must hit a sequence of buttons...
P+G,
tap forward and hit P+G
tap down and hit P+G, then hold G
That way, I could avoid not only any possible throw Jeffry has, but I avoid getting hit as well. And when he did the knee, I could easily counter. You can also sidestep before doing the 3 sequences above as well, but a well-timed radial hit will hit you out of the sidestep. Of course, doing the 3 sequences all the time is really hard to do consistently, so it's a challenge to master it.
Just thought that was cool, that's all.
I'm pretty positive that they'll try to add to get-up games in DOA4. DOA3's did have some options, but it felt really basic to me.
[this message was edited by EddyT on Wed 25 Sep 13:18] |
| Kitsune413
176th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(5):Just a few words..." , posted Thu 26 Sep 12:21
quote:
I would take DOA3 over Tekken 4 and VF4 any freakin' day of the week.
Once I get the dough I'm hittin' the sand with these ladies.
heh. Your the man Freeter.
quote:
You could only tech-roll one way, right? From what I remember, you couldn't tech-roll towards or away from the screen, or away from the opponent. And if I can remember... you weren't able to mash buttons when you were down to get up faster, were you?
What I was referring to and thought you meant was, When they knock you away, when your about to hit the ground for most attacks if you hit any button right when you do they roll right up out of it (and take less damage from the ground) though it doesn't work with all attacks. Sometimes you have to take damage from the ground.
DOA has tech rolls, most people don't know about them becuase you have to use the free botton. heh.
To get up very quickly at your present location, hit the punch button, they'll stand up fast.
To roll towards the background and get up, hit Up plus Free.
To roll towards teh foregrouund and get up, Hit Down plus Free.
It tells you how in the manual. However, It doesn't tell you that you can get up taking a step back, just hit... you guessed it, Back plus Free.
and obviously, Hit Kick to get up with a rising mid kick and down plus kick to get up with a sweep.
To explain a bit more, DOA Characters Do Not roll around in the ground like VF characters, They will roll and stand straight up, most likely rightly believing that the longer they're on the ground the more likely they are to be punched in the head. =P
Some characters have special techniques they can use to get off the ground with, Kasumi for example, if she's face down with her head facing her opponent, can hit free plus kick and she'll do a flip kick up.
quote:
I'm pretty positive that they'll try to add to get-up games in DOA4. DOA3's did have some options, but it felt really basic to me.
just take a look at what you didn't know. ^__^
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| Gojira 626th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(2):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Fri 27 Sep 00:55
I don't know why I was ignoring this thread for so long, but it seems folks were talking up a storm in here. So I have to add my two cents before the discussion ends.
I wish I could play DoA3 just to take it apart, but as it is I'll have to go back to why I gave up on DoA2 competitively: the balance.
Am I gonna say it's not balanced? Actually, quite the contrary, it IS very balanced. I think this is the thing that draws people to it when they have little or no knowledge of the game. The ground game is neat and simple, the attack/counter/throw/guard game is also simple, with all attacks working on a specific high/mid/low level.
However, it's a curse. Thanks to this balance, getting good at the game is almost nigh worthless and just becomes a series of memorization chores. Certain attacks become completely useless no matter what. There is no advantage to press. Regardless of the attack/defense situation it ALWAYS resets to a neutral stand-off between two players, which results in lineating play styles... in other words everyone who understands the game can play it the same way without consequences. No matter what character you're playing it's still the same neutral situation and you never *have* to change strategies to adjust to another play style.
This is not to say that nobody has come up with other strategies and techniques, but the game just isn't conductive to that kind of resourcefulness because of the simplicity of it all.
Does DoA3 change that? I doubt it. The developers probably consider that a good thing (they even said so at one point), so I don't think they'll ever change it. Nonetheless, that's why I don't like DoA.
GSPX progress: 36% done! New build coming: October 2002
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| Kitsune413
180th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(3):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Fri 27 Sep 10:18
quote:
However, it's a curse. Thanks to this balance, getting good at the game is almost nigh worthless and just becomes a series of memorization chores. Certain attacks become completely useless no matter what. There is no advantage to press. Regardless of the attack/defense situation it ALWAYS resets to a neutral stand-off between two players, which results in lineating play styles... in other words everyone who understands the game can play it the same way without consequences. No matter what character you're playing it's still the same neutral situation and you never *have* to change strategies to adjust to another play style.
If you never changed your strategy then it's really no wonder at all that you never got ahead of your opponent...
The Characters are supremely balanced in Dead or Alive... and all the controls are easy... Your opponent can do them. You can do them. So your left with these last factors, Out thinking, out strategizing and anticipating your opponent.
Another way to put what you said would be that no matter how much skill you have that it doesn't change anything.
here...
quote:
Depends on how you want to measure skill.
Is skill dependant on:
- the ability to perform moves?
- Or the ability to out-think, out-wit, and better strategize your opponent?
What's the problem if scrubs can perform the moves easily? If scrubs can perform the moves easily, than I can also perform the moves easily, can't I? The "easy" commands are easy for scrubs/button mashers, but they are easy for everyone.
So what's the problem? Do I not have
1) Better strategy, to out-think him?
2) Better reflexes, and reactions than him?
3) More experience, in mix-ups and patterns?
4) More knowledge of move properties?
...so what if the commands are easy for the scrub? That ain't gonna help him, because they are easy for me too, except I got much more to bring to the fight than he does.
That's why DOA3 is so good. Button mashing gets you killed, against anybody who's only half-decent at the game. EVERYTHING is easily counterable.
In other games, "elitists" use complex commands as a crutch, a shortcut way of separating themselves from those new to the game. They'd rather beat someone because they've spent more time in training mode, than actually work in beating the opponent's mind. They'd rather do the same abusable stuff over and over, secure in the knowledge that the other guy simply doesn't know what to do, or perform the inputs to get out of it.
Is "mastery" gauged on how:
- well you know and can perform a character's moves?
- or your ability to "master" your opponent?
It's easy to "master" a character in DOA3. But the other guy who's playing as also "mastered" their character. So both players are "masters" of their characters. So DOA3 is not about mastering your character (like how it is for other games), since everyone can do that - it's about mastering your opponent.
Unlike in other games, mastering your "character" simply isn't good enough.
in my personal experience with Dead or Alive you /always/ have to change strategies to adjust to an opponent's playing style. Sometimes several times in a single match.
So it's not that getting good at the game is nigh worthless. It's just that you never got good.
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| EddyT
104th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(5):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Fri 27 Sep 13:24:
Having similar counters in fighters never really appealed to me either. Examples are DOA with it's reversal system and SC with its guard impact system.
I just like variety in the the characters of a fighter game like VF4 because they feel so different. This including not only offense, but defense. They feel different when you play them, and they feel different when you play against them. Of course DOA and SC have different offenses for each character, but I feel it's not as exciting when you have very similar types of defensive moves. That, and the universal counters seem to give the user a bit too much of an advantage at times.
In DOA, characters do have differences in what they do when they DH, but generally they're still given the major advantage. It usually ends up in a juggle that you can add a combo into, or it's an attack that's guaranteed and knocks down the opponent to set up for your next move. SC's guard impact is a lot harder to time, but the effects seem universal.
Like I said before, I'm a very offense-minded person who loves to break down people's defenses and analyzing weaknesses and holes in their armor. And I love adjusting my style to whichever character I play against... it makes things much more interesting.
Examples: I know if a character has a mid-and-high punch counter, that I will have to rely a little more on kicks and save the punches for when I have the opponent's defense on the ropes. I know if I do this certain Flamingo combo with Sarah that ends with a high kick against Akira, he'll try to counter it to hit me back... so I'll hit guard after the second attack, wait for the counter to show, then punish with a throw. But the same combo works fine against a character like Aoi and it's perfectly safe against her (no possibility of a counter-attack when the combo is done). The combo can be side-stepped as well, so I need to use it sparingly and in guaranteed situations.
Universal counters really impedes my ability to attack as much, and I start to become a little hesitant. Then, I start to have too general of a offensive gameplan for attacking people. The only major adjustments I would be able to make... would be distance-related (what I could do at certain distances IF they expose themselves for a free hit) and how heavy the person was if I launched them (heavy people wouldn't juggle as much, so I'd use shorter combos).
That's just how I feel about the whole defensive ordeal, and that's the main reason why I'm really grooving on VF4. I don't feel like I'm on a short leash on offense in that game... but that's just my style of gameplay.
[this message was edited by EddyT on Fri 27 Sep 14:00] |
| Kitsune413
186th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(7):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Fri 27 Sep 15:20
quote:
I just like variety in the the characters of a fighter game like VF4 because they feel so different. This including not only offense, but defense. They feel different when you play them, and they feel different when you play against them. Of course DOA and SC have different offenses for each character, but I feel it's not as exciting when you have very similar types of defensive moves. That, and the universal counters seem to give the user a bit too much of an advantage at times.
There are different types of defensive characters. Characters like Kasumi, Bayman, Gen fu and Leifang all have advanced counters. It may not unbalance gameplay, but alot of them, like say Gen Fu's back forward up counter will counter both a medium and a high hit and turn the opponent around. Characters that are meant to specialize in reversals really are specialized in reversals.
Characters that are specialized in throws really are specialized in throws, go against Bass, Leon or Tina with just throws against throws and see what happens. ¬_¬
The fact that VF doesn't have universal counters does make characters without and with couunters very different. But in the end it's personal preference.
quote:
Like I said before, I'm a very offense-minded person who loves to break down people's defenses and analyzing weaknesses and holes in their armor. And I love adjusting my style to whichever character I play against... it makes things much more interesting.
by that definition you should like DOA more. ¬_¬ If anything in DOA you have to adjust to your opponent more just so you can not be countered and anticipate their strikes. Finding weaknesses in their armor is just varying your hit heights, learning when they counter, stopping your attack and throwing them, or just finding habits they have. (people who play DOA tend to always get off the ground in the same manner when they're lazy. they'll always get up with a low kick, or a mid kick, you can punish them for that. Make them have to change their habits)
quote:
Examples: I know if a character has a mid-and-high punch counter, that I will have to rely a little more on kicks and save the punches for when I have the opponent's defense on the ropes. I know if I do this certain Flamingo combo with Sarah that ends with a high kick against Akira, he'll try to counter it to hit me back... so I'll hit guard after the second attack, wait for the counter to show, then punish with a throw. But the same combo works fine against a character like Aoi and it's perfectly safe against her (no possibility of a counter-attack when the combo is done). The combo can be side-stepped as well, so I need to use it sparingly and in guaranteed situations.
So you prefer guaranteed situations? Because the exact same example could be done for any attack at all in DOA, you just hit the free button when you know they'll counter, move up and throw. You'll get 150% damage for it from the High counter. DOA not only encourages things like that, it rewards it. But no situation in DOA is guaranteed. there is a counter to everything. No combo you can always use.. like above... heh.
quote:
Universal counters really impedes my ability to attack as much, and I start to become a little hesitant. Then, I start to have too general of a offensive gameplan for attacking people. The only major adjustments I would be able to make... would be distance-related (what I could do at certain distances IF they expose themselves for a free hit) and how heavy the person was if I launched them (heavy people wouldn't juggle as much, so I'd use shorter combos).
Well, in DOA that could be related to a relative lack of ability. I'm not trying to insult you or anything, I'm just following your argument. ^_^ what your saying is because Everybody can counter, you can't do alot of your combo's over and over and over and over again... and... well.. thats the point. ¬_¬ Your not supposed to do the same thing over and over again...
I'm a very offensive player too. I play Hayate I really jump in there and just try to rip their head off... thats where the learning in DOA comes in. I've got every move Hayate has memorized, so I can really change up hit levels and fake out the opponent. I can hit away from where they're blocking and I'll watch them and eventually figure out when I can stop and throw them, where they're countering me at, etc.
Thats part of the game. So, just like I said a few posts earlier, You basically like VF because it's easier. heh. You don't have to think and change hit heights or worry about being countered by everyone... and thats fine. it's a personal choice.
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| Kitsune413
187th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(5):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Fri 27 Sep 15:28
quote:
For real. I find that as a better player, I can defeat players of lesser skill than I on a consistent basis. My best friend is also quite good at the game, we've been playing the series for years, and I can still consistently beat him despite the fact that there isn't an amazing difference in our skill level.
I've NEVER, EVER, lost several matches in a row to someone who isn't quite skilled at the game. If I've lost one or two, it's because I got cocky.
To say otherwise is completely baseless. The better player will win the vast majority of the time. It's not like flipping a coin here pal.
My friends are equal to me in skill and they're both very quick on their feet, so the matches are always very even, however, when I start to pick up on their habits and see what they're up to I'm sometimes able to win enough to get the special intro's. (if you win 8 matches in a row you'll get a special intro pose. the first one is what they say if they lose in story mode and continue, then you get another one roughly every five matches after that)
Our styles change and adapt to eachother every match, sometimes several times a match... So as you said, it was pretty groundless.
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| Gojira 628th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(4):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Fri 27 Sep 16:08
quote:
The Characters are supremely balanced in Dead or Alive... and all the controls are easy... Your opponent can do them. You can do them. So your left with these last factors, Out thinking, out strategizing and anticipating your opponent.
Exactly, anticipating, and only that much. Normally strategies like this are reserved for specific character matchups, with others centering on pressure, guard break, offensive evasion, unbalancing, fakeouts, and other-dimensional movement (just to name a few). In DoA no matter what character you use or who you're playing against this one anticipation thing is what you end up doing in every game. No matter what else you can do in the game this is still at the core of it all, and there's no avoiding it. It renders many of these other established offensive and defensive strategies worthless and hasn't done much to create new ones in their stead.
BTW, I'm normally not one to correct anyone's grammar but
"Your" is possessive.
"You're" is short for "you are".
I'm not trying to be an ass about it, but you've made this mistake like 20 times in this thread alone, so I start to wonder if you're even aware of it.
GSPX progress: 36% done! New build coming: October 2002
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| Kitsune413
192th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(5):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Fri 27 Sep 20:42
quote:
Exactly, anticipating, and only that much. Normally strategies like this are reserved for specific character matchups, with others centering on pressure, guard break, offensive evasion, unbalancing, fakeouts, and other-dimensional movement (just to name a few). In DoA no matter what character you use or who you're playing against this one anticipation thing is what you end up doing in every game. No matter what else you can do in the game this is still at the core of it all, and there's no avoiding it. It renders many of these other established offensive and defensive strategies worthless and hasn't done much to create new ones in their stead.
I don't follow you at all whatsoever. It sounds like your trying to say that Anticipation is a strategy. Anticipation would be guessing what your opponent is going to do next and then deciding what to do about it... which is where things like...
putting on pressure, guard breaks, offensive evasion, unbalancing, fakeouts, and other-dimensional movement come into play. I typically use all of those things in a single match. They're pretty important to the gameplay.
If by the anticipation you think I mean, waiting there and countering I of course do not. Countering is 33% of Dead or Alive. People who think they can rely on it fools becuase it leaves the other 66% of the game on them. If all you do is counter then all they have to do is throw and they will kill you no matter what, you won't even hurt them.
So if by Anticipating you mean turtling, I never turtle, I'm to aggressive of a player for that and put most of it down on the offense and have no problems with that.
quote:
BTW, I'm normally not one to correct anyone's grammar but
"Your" is possessive.
"You're" is short for "you are".
I'm not trying to be an ass about it, but you've made this mistake like 20 times in this thread alone, so I start to wonder if you're even aware of it.
Totally unaware of it actually, I type as fast as I think and have been to lazy to spellcheck lately. So there are alot of your, you're mistakes.
Not half as bad as my They, They're, Their mistakes. heh. sorry for the inconvenience.
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| EddyT
106th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(8):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Fri 27 Sep 20:57:
quote:
Well, in DOA that could be related to a relative lack of ability. I'm not trying to insult you or anything, I'm just following your argument. ^_^ what your saying is because Everybody can counter, you can't do alot of your combo's over and over and over and over again... and... well.. thats the point. ¬_¬ Your not supposed to do the same thing over and over again...
Kitsune, I doubt I have a lack of ability to play the game. I hate to sound like a broken record when I have to repeatedly say that I have played all of the games in the series pretty extensively. You know, a lot of people don't even give DOA the time of day because of the huge bias it has of being a shallow game that only concentrates on pretty graphics and girls with huge bouncing boobs. I'm one of the others who looked past that bias and found that the game was a lot better than others perceived it to be.
You make it sound like I have no idea how to play the game (or anyone else who doesn't agree with you). Again, it's a little insulting because I'm just trying to explain what I wish DOA would work on, not trying to question your appeal to DOA. And it's just from my point of view... nobody's right or wrong.
Although it's hard to tell a person's tone of thought is with just text displayed, I've seen a little bit of bluntness and sarcasm from your posts. It's a little odd that you are accusing others of being a little fanboyish about their respective fighting series, yet you are acting a little high and mighty yourself everytime someone disagrees with you. And this is after they bring up a good point. It's not really helping your cause of supporting DOA, especially in this thread when most people are arguing AGAINST you.
I'm actually agreeing with some of the things you have to say, and it's all in good arguement. That is what a discussion is supposed to be like... to see how the other side thinks. And sometimes opinions change after understanding from a different point of view.
But, it's hard to take heart on what you say when I feel like I'm being insulted half the time from your posts. I don't expect you or anyone to agree with what I say, but I do hope I have earned enough respect from others to speak my mind and not have my gaming abilities questioned. I do have my reasons for what I state, and they're not unfounded, jaded opinions I grabbed out of the air.
DOA has its good points, and it has bad points as well. Same with VF. I feel that Tecmo's fighter could use a few added things to make it much more solid, and that's all I'm trying to share. I never said I hated DOA, but I do think there is a couple of factors that keep me from really enjoying it. Like anyone else would, I'm just airing out my opinions, and seeing what others think.
What Gojira said hit the nail on one of the major qualms of the game that I have. I guess I don't appeal to universal countering. It explains why I don't like Soul Calibur as much, either. I won't go into any lengths about the subject again, but I still feel it gives defenders an easy way out.
Easy as in simplistic, not easy as in "easy to do". But then again, DOA3 did dumb down the counters to make it easier for newbies. If they hadn't done that, I wouldn't be complaining nearly as much, because there's more of a risk to doing the arcade counters. Still bothers me that everyone can counter every strike, but I understand that's what is DOA's niche.
I've tried to be fair about it, and I've been very mature the whole time we've posted on the threads. I've read your reasons why you like DOA and I had some agreements and disagreements with you. But when it comes down to me being accused of having no ability to play the game... I know my opinions are falling on deaf ears.
So I'm going to stop posting my thoughts on this thread. It's been interesting, and some of my qualms with DOA have been explained and resolved in this thread. Others have not, but it's not worth getting worked up about it in here.
I'm just going to move on and enjoy DOA for what it is. I still play it once in a while, but I stated my reasons as to why I don't play it nearly as often as VF4. I'm still going to anticipate any future games from the series, but at the same time, I hope they will make some significant changes to the gameplay to make it even better.
I sincerely believe that Tecmo has a chance to compete even closer with any 3D fighter that Sega or Namco has to offer. But we'll see what happens next round.
And no, I don't do the same combos over and over again like you have insinuated. But it's not worth arguing against that because you seemed to have already labeled me as an "unworthy gamer" who can't play or understand games.
It's quite disappointing, though. I was thinking we were having a nice, meaningful debate. It's much more engaging than any of the posts I've read in the Tecmo forums.
[this message was edited by EddyT on Fri 27 Sep 21:15] |
| Kitsune413
193th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(9):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Sat 28 Sep 10:04
quote:
Kitsune, I doubt I have a lack of ability to play the game. I hate to sound like a broken record when I have to repeatedly say that I have played all of the games in the series pretty extensively. You know, a lot of people don't even give DOA the time of day because of the huge bias it has of being a shallow game that only concentrates on pretty graphics and girls with huge bouncing boobs. I'm one of the others who looked past that bias and found that the game was a lot better than others perceived it to be.
Your also the first one to put down arguments to why VF is better than it. Of course in the end, I can't prove you wrong because they're both preference.
Alot of people don't give DOA the time of day because of the huge bias it has. You did. That hardly makes you a pro. I played DOA2 from the very day it was released. Two years later DOA3 comes out and I got even more deep into the game. The guy I was when I played DOA2 didn't actually know alot about the deeper gameplay mechanics of DOA and definitely doesn't want to meet the new me in a dark alley.
You played DOA, But you haven't gotten past those barriers yet. Everything you've said against DOA has demonstrated a lack of knowledge of the fighting engine that you might not have even been able to learn because you have no competition.
So hopefully, now that you know that there is more to DOA than you originally thought, maybe you can go back to it (if you still have it) and play it a new light, maybe you can even convince your friends to play and show them how deep the game truly is.
quote:
You make it sound like I have no idea how to play the game (or anyone else who doesn't agree with you). Again, it's a little insulting because I'm just trying to explain what I wish DOA would work on, not trying to question your appeal to DOA. And it's just from my point of view... nobody's right or wrong.
Not because I don't agree with you. Your telling me hwat You wish DOA would work on, most of the time bringing up things it already has. I know you played the game, but your no pro and there is a ton you don't understand about it. It's the exact same as telling me that you don't like Street Fighter because it doesn't have fireballs and then getting angry at me because I say that Street Fighter's lack of fireballs is directly proportional to your lack of skill rather than the game. It's the exact same thing. I know you played it. But DOA is very unique among fighters and needs to be played differently than how you played it. heh. don't get angry with me. I know your point of view is towards VF and I'm not trying to change your mind towards which is better. But you already demonstrated time and again that in DOA you still have alot to learn.
(and if I were to actually have to get into VF4 again, I delved into it, but decided I didn't like it's overall style as much, which is fine, I'd have to go alot deeper too.) But in the end, I'm not saying that DOA is better than VF, or telling you why VF is deeper than DOA. I've played VF, (not as much now as I had before) and I really enjoy the series, so it's not my perogative to say which is better. Simply which I prefer.
quote:
Although it's hard to tell a person's tone of thought is with just text displayed, I've seen a little bit of bluntness and sarcasm from your posts. It's a little odd that you are accusing others of being a little fanboyish about their respective fighting series, yet you are acting a little high and mighty yourself everytime someone disagrees with you. And this is after they bring up a good point. It's not really helping your cause of supporting DOA, especially in this thread when most people are arguing AGAINST you.
Of course I'm biased. Your biased towards VF, I'm biased towards DOA, people who say they aren't biased are biased. To be unbiased you have to literally have no favorite game. Everybody who plays two fighters will enjoy one a little more than the other. then they favor one. Then they are biased.
Also, noting how most people are arguing against me means nothing. You've already noted how most people are previously biased towards DOA. So of course they're arguing against me. But at least here on MMcafe the people who argue are ones who have rudimentary knowledge of DOA.
quote:
I'm actually agreeing with some of the things you have to say, and it's all in good arguement. That is what a discussion is supposed to be like... to see how the other side thinks. And sometimes opinions change after understanding from a different point of view.
I know. But nothing that has been said so far against DOA has any ground. So why would my opinion change? It's like expecting a Street Fighter Elite's point of view to change because someone who is average at the game shows up and says, "When I play Street Fighter, I never notice that anybody's play strategy changes to adjust to his opponent, I only see one strategy over and over again".
It's very nice of you to be open minded about this. I'm glad, If you still DOA however, I suggest that if you have the time and patience, maybe you should check it out again, see if you can convince your friends to play and find all the things you were missing.
quote:
But, it's hard to take heart on what you say when I feel like I'm being insulted half the time from your posts. I don't expect you or anyone to agree with what I say, but I do hope I have earned enough respect from others to speak my mind and not have my gaming abilities questioned. I do have my reasons for what I state, and they're not unfounded, jaded opinions I grabbed out of the air.
I haven't been insulting you. I've been listening. I'm sorry if my questioning your gaming abilities is making you feel uncomfortable, but alot of the time when you state an opinion against DOA you show me something like not knowing the game had tech rolls. Then expect me to think of you as a pro. I'm not trying to be insulting. But once again, it's like saying that King of Fighter's doesn't have Supers so it's not as good as Street Fighter then expecting the other guy to think your a pro. Whether your a good gamer or not, there is obviously alot about DOA that you didn't know.
quote:
DOA has its good points, and it has bad points as well. Same with VF. I feel that Tecmo's fighter could use a few added things to make it much more solid, and that's all I'm trying to share. I never said I hated DOA, but I do think there is a couple of factors that keep me from really enjoying it. Like anyone else would, I'm just airing out my opinions, and seeing what others think.
What Gojira said hit the nail on one of the major qualms of the game that I have. I guess I don't appeal to universal countering. It explains why I don't like Soul Calibur as much, either. I won't go into any lengths about the subject again, but I still feel it gives defenders an easy way out.
What Gojira said really had no grounds whatsoever. Every game has it's good and bad points, but your talking about personal preference. Universal Counters and Parries don't give the defender and Easy Way out, it gives the attackers an Easy Way In. which seems to be what you prefer.
Which seriously just leads back to, You like other fighters more because you can attack more freely without worry of reprisal. Which is easier. Thats fine it's a personal preference and there's nothing wrong with it. But it's hardly something that should be held against the game.
DOA isn't focused on Strikes like other games. Other games have blocks and strikes, where the entire point is to keep striking at eachother and if the opponent blocks to much you can throw him, alot of games let you break that throw, which leads back to the first, a game entirely focused on strikes.
Your asking for a game entirely focused on Strikes and DOA isn't that. It's a game that uses strikes, counters and throws equally as part of the combat engines. They're all viable options. The game doesn't always lead back to Strikes, of course, if you play totally focusing on using Strikes without knowing how to use throws or counters, your going to lose. But it's exactly the same as if your playing Street Fighter and you want to focus entirely on using regular attacks and don't use any specials or supers...
Your Opponent is going to have an advantage over you. This isn't the games fault but it's in the player himself. You prefer VF and thats great, but don't try to make it sound like it's the games problem. I know DOA isn't perfect. No Fighting game is, but what you've got a problem with isn't one of it's flaws.
So if you want me to say that your problem is with DOA isn't a lack of skill, let me phrase it this way. You play Street Fighter without the specials and supers and expect to win. it's exactly the same as that.
quote:
Easy as in simplistic, not easy as in "easy to do". But then again, DOA3 did dumb down the counters to make it easier for newbies. If they hadn't done that, I wouldn't be complaining nearly as much, because there's more of a risk to doing the arcade counters. Still bothers me that everyone can counter every strike, but I understand that's what is DOA's niche.
Not really. The counters just changed so that they're more accessible, ,which is fine because they're 33% of the fighting engine and should be as accessible as strikes and throws. The problem with DOA isn't that the counters are accessible. ~_~ just that you personally can't get around them. Seriously, if the opponent counters to much, Start throwing them. you get 150% damage for it and you'll lay the opponent flat in seconds.
quote:
I've tried to be fair about it, and I've been very mature the whole time we've posted on the threads. I've read your reasons why you like DOA and I had some agreements and disagreements with you. But when it comes down to me being accused of having no ability to play the game... I know my opinions are falling on deaf ears.
I've listened to your arguments. You have been very mature and very intelligent the whole time. Don't take what I say so personally. seriously, If you still have DOA, try to get your friends to play and go try it out and see how much thought and ability it takes to actually get around those counters, what kind of strategies you have to use to defeat your opponents. You and your friends won't ever call it shallow again. =P
quote:
I'm just going to move on and enjoy DOA for what it is. I still play it once in a while, but I stated my reasons as to why I don't play it nearly as often as VF4. I'm still going to anticipate any future games from the series, but at the same time, I hope they will make some significant changes to the gameplay to make it even better.
Well you still have it, So go play it for what it actually is. Instead of Street Fighter without the specials and supers.
quote:
I sincerely believe that Tecmo has a chance to compete even closer with any 3D fighter that Sega or Namco has to offer. But we'll see what happens next round.
I think that DOA has the most room for growth of any of the fighting series out so far, it just feels like it has alot of potential that isn't fullfilled. However, it already stands up to Tekken and VF.
quote:
It's quite disappointing, though. I was thinking we were having a nice, meaningful debate. It's much more engaging than any of the posts I've read in the Tecmo forums.
*sighs* whatever. Like I said, You can't go up to an SF pro and tell them that the game has flaws because you don't like using specials and supers and it's not as good as other games because of it and expect to get away unscathed. So here comes your choice... are you going to listen to what I said and go in there and learn your character to the extent to where you can move around the opponents counters with your strikes and throw him when he's not expecting it to get more damage. use tech rolls and sidesteps more effectively and improve your game? Or are you just going to keep saying that Specials and Supers are cheap and that you're a SF pro and that you play it for all it's worth? That choice is yours.
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| Kitsune413
199th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(7):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Sun 29 Sep 14:02
quote:
You really don't understand. I guess you're too used to DoA's system that you don't realize the common denominator here.
Hardly, you entirely expected me to understand what you were saying by saying that "Anticipation" was the only strategy in the game.
1 a : a prior action that takes into account or forestalls a later action b : the act of looking forward; especially : pleasurable expectation
You wanted me to understand an overly vague statement... Like, My car is that car out there... in the parking lot. =P
quote:
Take another 3D game, say VF4 since it's in this thread. Pick any combination of Pai/Aoi vs. Pai/Aoi ONLY. What strategies does the entire game of DoA offer that cannot occur in that one simple matchup?
Not really a very good comparison. Pai is a very easy character to learn, Aoi is a bit more difficult and of course those two don't represent the entire VF line up, I mean if you threw Lion into the equation then all of a sudden your missing your counters.
But in the end, All Fighters use similar strategies. Your asking what new strategies would come about but of course the individual strategies from game to game don't change as much.
So when your going character to character, you'll use the same strategies as other fighters, even though it may be more important for you to use mind games, Making the opponent think your going to do one thing and doing the other is done in all fighteres, but in DOA if you even want to damage the opponent it's pretty essential.
I think a big part of the strategy that DOA has that VF doesn't comes from the stages. Of course you'll have to worry about getting ringed out, or even the four walls in VF. In DOA you don't have to worry about ring outs, but you do have to worry about more than just walls, there are obstacles everywhere... and some of them blow you up. =P The characters use the environments better with wall throws, making it so that even if your opponent is the one with their back to the wall, they could just do a wall throw and slam you into it.
You don't get that in other fighters as much. So psychological warfare, just to attack the opponent, strategy, not just offensive and defensive strategies like all games utilize, but also more environmental strategy really give DOA alot of it's lasting appeal.
I'm sure I misinterpreted your a original question, but eh, whatever. it's still vague. heh.
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| Gojira 635th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(8):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Sun 29 Sep 18:30
quote:
Not really a very good comparison. Pai is a very easy character to learn, Aoi is a bit more difficult and of course those two don't represent the entire VF line up, I mean if you threw Lion into the equation then all of a sudden your missing your counters.
But in the end, All Fighters use similar strategies. Your asking what new strategies would come about but of course the individual strategies from game to game don't change as much.
So when your going character to character, you'll use the same strategies as other fighters, even though it may be more important for you to use mind games, Making the opponent think your going to do one thing and doing the other is done in all fighteres, but in DOA if you even want to damage the opponent it's pretty essential.
Yes. Like you say, add Lion and you lose the countering. But there is no "Lion" in DoA. All of the characters reverse and - correct me if I'm wrong - all striking attacks can be reversed. Nothing is spread out; no attempt is made to blur the lines of the system to give some characters more uniqueness. I'm sure you like that because it makes it more a test of the player vs. player than player's character vs. player's character. I just think it's too dull that way.
quote:
I think a big part of the strategy that DOA has that VF doesn't comes from the stages. Of course you'll have to worry about getting ringed out, or even the four walls in VF. In DOA you don't have to worry about ring outs, but you do have to worry about more than just walls, there are obstacles everywhere... and some of them blow you up. =P The characters use the environments better with wall throws, making it so that even if your opponent is the one with their back to the wall, they could just do a wall throw and slam you into it.
You don't get that in other fighters as much. So psychological warfare, just to attack the opponent, strategy, not just offensive and defensive strategies like all games utilize, but also more environmental strategy really give DOA alot of it's lasting appeal.
To be honest, I see DoA's environments as no more a factor to DoA than walls or ringouts were a factor to other fighters. It's all positioning and changing the angle that the normal 2D fighting travels on. You have someone against a wall/edge, but they might have a reverse-position throw that sends you into the wall/over the edge. It's no different. If it wasn't for slippery surfaces there'd be nothing at all unique about DoA's environments (unless something was added to DoA3 that I'm not aware of).
GSPX progress: 36% done! New build coming: October 2002
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| Kitsune413
202th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(9):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Mon 30 Sep 12:33
quote:
Yes. Like you say, add Lion and you lose the countering. But there is no "Lion" in DoA. All of the characters reverse and - correct me if I'm wrong - all striking attacks can be reversed. Nothing is spread out; no attempt is made to blur the lines of the system to give some characters more uniqueness. I'm sure you like that because it makes it more a test of the player vs. player than player's character vs. player's character. I just think it's too dull that way.
Not really. Thats more of a misconception. It comes from the way the games are setup.
We'll just throw down a basic tier system right here...
Tier 1: Beggining, A player learns the basics of controlling the character and the system.
Tier 2: mediocre, at this point the player understands the system well, knows his characters well and is pretty skilled.
Tier3: Pro, at this level the player knows the ins and outs of the system. Understanding the way it works to a T, knowing the little things about the game like Stun Properties and the like.
In a game like Virtua Fighter, you have someone like Lion and you have someone like Aoi, these characters don't have the same basic skills at all, so they're very different. Because they have different basics you notice the difference between these characters at tier 1. The beginning tier.
In DOA all the characters are very different, but at first when your learning the basics they all play similarly. They all have universal counters, universal throws, universal strikes, etc.
DOA doesn't differentiate the characters to a beginner, thats why you get a bunch of guys who don't know anything about DOA spouting about how all the characters are the same.
DOA differentiate's between characters at Tier3, the pro's can tell the difference between each person, their strengths, their weaknesses. etc. etc.
Like In DOA Tina has a ground throw that hurts people, Leon and Bayman have ground throws that hurt people, Bass has a ground throw that picks people up.
Tina has an air throw, Bass has an Air Throw, Leon has an Air Throw.
Not everybody strikes the same, everybody has extremely different properties, some characters are built to hold their attacks, some aren't.
DOA characters are /Very/ different. But it takes time to figure that out. It's not given at tier 1.
a beginner can change from Jann to Hayabusa and use the same basic techniques and there isn't to much different. It's the characters advanced techniques that make them special.
quote:
To be honest, I see DoA's environments as no more a factor to DoA than walls or ringouts were a factor to other fighters. It's all positioning and changing the angle that the normal 2D fighting travels on. You have someone against a wall/edge, but they might have a reverse-position throw that sends you into the wall/over the edge. It's no different. If it wasn't for slippery surfaces there'd be nothing at all unique about DoA's environments (unless something was added to DoA3 that I'm not aware of).
Well, right here your argument is basically that Environments exist in all 3d fighters. Which is true of course.
But DOA emphasizes the environment. we'll stay with VF, it's a good measuring stick of 3d fighters.
VF's main emphasis is on the character versus character confrontation. Second would be avoiding getting ringed out.
in DOA it's the Player using the Environment Against a Player using the environment.
A big part of that is the way the games basics are put together. VF doesn't move much. DOA has tons of knockbacks that fling a character from one side of the stage to the other, Where as VF has very small stages, so if they did that ringouts would occur very early.
Think about VF in a DOA Environment. DOA environments are huge and in a typical match one character will bash one character from one side of it to the other because there is so many knock back moves.
Now Vf is a very close fighter, you wouldn't see much movement at all. Even in VF3 where they had environments it was just a ring with walls most of the time.
The only move that really has alot of movement would be Wolf's 360'. Which throws the character according to direction your standing.
In DOA, if you do a similar throw, lets say Leon's half quarter forward throw, he'll pick the person up, aim them at the nearest object (a wall, a pillar, whatever) and toss them at it.
The way the DOA system is it very intentionally knocks back, throws, launches, whatever towards walls and pillars.
Besides the sliding ground, walls themselves are more dangerous in DOA3 because of the upgraded system, (You can knock them against it twice before they slump to the ground) and not all walls in DOA are perfectly safe. some are electrified, or explode. The danger zones...
Not to mention your not just worrying about the edges, You have to worry about pillar's, tree's, stone pile's, stalactites...
Walls that give way. =P Getting knocked off an edge in DOA isn't good. Though, avoiding them is the same as avoiding an edge in VF I suppose it could be argued.
Free movement is used alot better in DOA because of that, it can be used to avoid attacks, but it's also necessary far more often than any other fighter to move your character away from something like a wall or tree that you don't want to be slammed against.
This emphasis gives DOA's huge stages a strategic advantage over other 3d fighters.
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| Gojira 638th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(10):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Mon 30 Sep 16:04
Hmm, this thread is long enough because of quotes, so I'll just respond without.
First, break any fighter down to its smallest components and you'll find differences, sure. DoA's system just doesn't inspire me to do such a thing, though. And judging from the number of "expert" players around my arcade (there are none), it's not hard to see why. DoA has too many factors that draw the wrong crowds to it. It gets the sales, sure, but it's not getting the real players. The reason? Everyone has to start from the beginning, and smaller differences in player skill or character moves at that point of experience make no difference. You get stuck in that area for so long without variety that most people just give up on it.
Second, I understand about the size and distance thing in the environments because of the exaggerated blow distance, but still for something that's supposed to be such a huge factor you'd think they could come up with something better for it that just re-using the same wall algorithm for every object in sight. Sure, some break away, some explode or electrify, but it's all the same thing, a way to increase damage. I like the slippery surface idea because that in itself doesn't increase damage, but opens up a unique opportunity. With everything else it's the other way around: you hit someone into something when you get a chance and get a damage bonus, and that's it. If there was more creativity in the environmental hazards it wouldn't be such a dull idea to me. I'm not saying there should be spikes and poison gas and molten lead all over the place (though it would be funny), but I think trees can have more applications in a fight than simply being objects you can get knocked or thrown into.
GSPX progress: 37% done! New build coming: October 2002
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| Kitsune413
203th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Tue 1 Oct 11:14
First off, if you've looked at the sales of fighting games lately, they always get lower than before. Thats because a newbie doesn't want to walk in and get totally trashed by some pro in an arcade. Fighters get more and more obscure each time because it's hard for newbies to get into them against the Pro's, DOA's game play system helps out against that because anybody can pick it up and do fairly well, but there is still huge advantages for being a pro. Your right to say that it attracts the wrong crowd sometimes, people who like it only for the girls etc. But every fighting game is going to get those fans. The last time I visited a Tekken board there were to many idiots there for me to breath. VF has way to many elitists. I think DOA doesn't have as many experts because nobody wants to find the depth since they're all told the game is all about the graphics, etc. The people who put the time into DOA are rewarded just like anyone else and it is making it's attempt to bring the fighting genre back to life. Which may or may not be possible at this point.
As for tree's, Tree's and walls are two different type of objects, Your not gonna be able to get a person up against a tree and hurt them the same way you do against a wall. In fact, They tend to bounce off of them as they are round objects. So even in the, "Added damage" property they are very different. Characters can also jump off of them and use them for special throws. So the environment still really comes into play.
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| EddyT
110th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(4):Re(10):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Wed 2 Oct 03:49
From what I understand, in Japanese arcades, VF4 is still insanely popular. In the US, Tekken is popular in arcades. Both countries are experiencing slower sales in arcades, but US is suffering badly.
For US home, Tekken and DOA are more popular than VF, I'm guessing. Not sure how it is in Japan. They had a figures chart online somewhere saying that for XBox, DOA3 sold more than 150,000 units in Japan and was the No. 1 seller. Halo was a distant 2nd place with 50 K. I'm certain Tekken and VF sold much more than 150K in Japan, just from PS2 userbase alone.
Man, I'm hoping online play will change things dramatically.
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| Kitsune413
205th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(5):Re(10):*thumbs in the middle*" , posted Wed 2 Oct 21:28
quote:
From what I understand, in Japanese arcades, VF4 is still insanely popular. In the US, Tekken is popular in arcades. Both countries are experiencing slower sales in arcades, but US is suffering badly.
For US home, Tekken and DOA are more popular than VF, I'm guessing. Not sure how it is in Japan. They had a figures chart online somewhere saying that for XBox, DOA3 sold more than 150,000 units in Japan and was the No. 1 seller. Halo was a distant 2nd place with 50 K. I'm certain Tekken and VF sold much more than 150K in Japan, just from PS2 userbase alone.
Man, I'm hoping online play will change things dramatically.
Well VF4 is on the PS2 because Yu Suzuki wants to make it more mainstream. Basically his entire attempt with VF4 was admittedly to make it easier to get into.
VF4 sold really well I believe because it was very hyped. Lots of casual fans bought it, just to hang it up on their shelves.
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