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Iggy

628th Post

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"I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 10:53

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Will we ever see a nice Rockman in 2D again? or even a nice 2D game?

Replies:

OmegaDog
158th Post

Regular Customer

"Re(1):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 11:02:

quote:
I HATE CEL SHADING!!

Hmm -- though I definitely prefer handdrawn animation, if something's done in 3D, I'd prefer that characters or areas of characters that are normally done in flat shading in 2D, remain that way in 3D. [I like gouraud shading, but it just doesn't belong in some places...]

[Edit: Although, come to think of it -- Rock had fountain filling in his 2D renditions, didn't he...?]

NEXT STAGE IS 4

[this message was edited by OmegaDog on Mon 16 Sep 11:05]

BCMidnight

491th Post

Gold Customer

"Re(2):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 11:03

If the game is good, I will play it. I also prefer hand drawn animation but, I'll take the Mega Man I can get.

Radish

293th Post

Copper Customer

"Re(2):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 11:05

Yeah, I like cell shading as much as the next guy, but it is starting to get out of hand. It's starting to lose the individual style that was the whole point of cell shading in the first place.

OmegaDog
159th Post

Regular Customer

"Re(3):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 11:08:

Cel-shading was actually around before Jet Set Radio hit, if that's to what you're referring -- it's just that JSR, I believe, was the first real-time application of it for video-game purposes. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, though.)

NEXT STAGE IS 4

[this message was edited by OmegaDog on Mon 16 Sep 11:09]

Gen

653th Post

Red Carpet Regular Member

"Re(1):I also dislike the look of "cell shadin" , posted Mon 16 Sep 11:12

quote:
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Will we ever see a nice Rockman in 2D again? or even a nice 2D game?

I also don't like "cell shaded" C.G. with its feeble attempts at mimicing traditional animation. Streight traditional and streight C.G. look better. Yet what is the reason for cell for a cell shading? 1 to mimic traditional and 2 to improve over the look of C.G.? For a game like this I'll take just streight C.G. thanks anyway. I suppose its fine for there to be a few games that experiment with it. Just that for me it lacks aestheticly. Perhaps the methods aren't developed enough at the current time to properly make C.G. look more like traditional, and in the future the same process will look better with more computing power and such.

I'm sure there are other people that think differently on the subject and some that like the way it looks.

whitesword

1000th Post

Red Carpet Premium Member

"Re(1):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 11:15

quote:
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Will we ever see a nice Rockman in 2D again? or even a nice 2D game?

Oh put a spoon in it you spoony bard, and wait until you play the game before you judge it!

A Burning Fist is a Fist tat is Burning!

Gojira

591th Post

New Red Carpet Member

"Re(1):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 11:34

Well I've been tuning out Rockman games ever since that steaming pile of crap called X5. I mean, that game really makes 2D look cheap and bad. All the X games before that were actually decent but X5 really stepped over the line in cutting corners graphically with its floating 1-frame heads and badly drawn staircase. Ugh. Help me forget, please.

As for "why cel-shading", cel-shading is just cleaner than regular 3D CGI. Lightsources have too many effects on regular CGI, and produce too much unwanted shadow and contrast, so cel-shading with its dual-tones is more appropriate for the cutesy designs of Rockman.

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Juan

2411th Post

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"MOOOAARGHHFFFMNNGG!!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 11:34

Not in while. It appears to be cheaper and less time consuming for them to create a 3d model and animate it than creating every single animation frame.

Its a shame, they have so much power to make a nice 2d game, but hey it may be fun.

quote:

Will we ever see a nice Rockman in 2D again? or even a nice 2D game?

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CrazyMike
192th Post

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"Re(2):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 11:43

I hate texture mapping ^_^ j/k but thats been done alot more then cel shading.

Radish

295th Post

Copper Customer

"Re(3):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 11:53

Yeah, for a while there was supposed to be another 2D Castlevania for the PS2 which could have been really cool, but I'm pretty sure that just turned into White Night Concerto which while a great game, is a disappointment if it could have been on a real console.

I know 2D is much less popular than 3D but I hope companies still realize it has merits that 3D just can't deliver.

Gen

654th Post

Red Carpet Regular Member

"Re(1):MOOOAARGHHFFFMNNGG!!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 11:58

Juan>

quote:

Its a shame, they have so much power to make a nice 2d game, but hey it may be fun.

Will we ever see a nice Rockman in 2D again? or even a nice 2D game?

Yes, all the ability they could be putting into making an extreamly good 2D game, but the industry is too 3D minded. All the 2D games are on hand helds. I heard that one of those recent cool looking Castelvania games was going to be for Play Station 2, but then they moved it to Gameboy. Not knocking Gameboy, but the idea of the Playstation 2 being put to work on a 2D Castlevania on a large monitor is drooly.
It seems like there are only 1-3 good 2D games for home consols or arcades in a year, over the last few years, and they are all on NeoGeo. Any others?

Crazymike>

quote:
I hate texture mapping ^_^ j/k but thats been done alot more then cel shading.

A lot of times I think they over do it with the regular 3D CG too. Too much investement in 3D and photorealism, at the cost of all other areas of the game.

Gen

656th Post

Red Carpet Regular Member

"Re(4):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 12:05:

quote:
Yeah, for a while there was supposed to be another 2D Castlevania for the PS2 which could have been really cool, but I'm pretty sure that just turned into White Night Concerto which while a great game, is a disappointment if it could have been on a real console.

I know 2D is much less popular than 3D but I hope companies still realize it has merits that 3D just can't deliver.

There's a huge fan base that wants more 2D games. I think that's the reason why NeoGeo is still alive. The industry ignors them in there persuit of what I like to call "ooOoh Oooh let's make a "Three-Dee" game!"

Even Capcom references it in their Capcom Versus SNK game when they say "2D will never die."

...hm actually there should be an option to turn that announcer off. Maybe if you beat Akuma enough times the option becomes available. Akuma jumps in and chucks the announcer, and then Akuma does all the play by play for the rest of the game.

[this message was edited by Gen on Mon 16 Sep 12:09]

Radish

296th Post

Copper Customer

"Re(5):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 12:16

quote:
Yeah, for a while there was supposed to be another 2D Castlevania for the PS2 which could have been really cool, but I'm pretty sure that just turned into White Night Concerto which while a great game, is a disappointment if it could have been on a real console.

I know 2D is much less popular than 3D but I hope companies still realize it has merits that 3D just can't deliver.

There's a huge fan base that wants more 2D games. I think that's the reason why NeoGeo is still alive. The industry ignors them in there persuit of what I like to call "ooOoh Oooh let's make a "Three-Dee" game!"

Even Capcom references it in their Capcom Versus SNK game when they say "2D will never die."

...hm actually there should be an option to turn that announcer off. Maybe if you beat Akuma enough times the option becomes available. Akuma jumps in and chucks the announcer, and then Akuma does all the play by play for the rest of the game.

Personally I think the new "Hanjuku Hero vs 3D" sounds like a really clever idea. If Square can pull it off well then it should be a really great game. I just hope it turns out well AND is picked up for a NA release.

It just bugs me when someone does something cool and then other developers have to run it into the ground so that everyone ends up hating it. Just off the top of my head are music games, cell shading, being the "bad" guy, vampires...

Tashoku Kisune

1041th Post

Red Carpet Premium Member

"Re(1):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 12:18

quote:
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Will we ever see a nice Rockman in 2D again? or even a nice 2D game?

I don't mind it... but then again. I just think that if it is appropriate for the environment and it looks good that it's all gravy!

Gen

657th Post

Red Carpet Regular Member

"Re(6):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 12:34

quote:
Personally I think the new "Hanjuku Hero vs 3D" sounds like a really clever idea. If Square can pull it off well then it should be a really great game. I just hope it turns out well AND is picked up for a NA release.

It just bugs me when someone does something cool and then other developers have to run it into the ground so that everyone ends up hating it. Just off the top of my head are music games, cell shading, being the "bad" guy, vampires...

Yes. I will buy a game just based on pure originality to economically reward the makers' originalness, and I will sometimes not buy a game if it is too unoriginal or "derivative".

talbaineric

4043th Post

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master

"Re(7):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 14:05

Yeah,certain games were only meant to be cel-shaded. Like Sly Cooper!

Viva La 2-D!

Fro Boy11

991th Post

Red Carpet Regular Member++

"Re(8):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 15:37

Have you guys seen pics of the new Superman game coming out for PS2? It's cel-shaded and it looks cool because it's based on the cartoon. It looks good, and I heard that it plays good, so for certain things like this cel-shading is good.

Just don't be surprised if you see a cel-shaded Street Fighter one day. I already think that SFIV will be.

rid_hershel

3488th Post

Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master

"Re(9):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 16:01

2d graphics looked like crap in their first days and nobody complained.

traditional 3d graphics looked like crap in their first days and nobody complained.

Give the cell shaded look some time to improve, I prefer cell shaded over traditional rendered graphics. Or just don't play it because of how it looks, and maybe you'll missing a gameplay gem.

After all, for some people, it's only the graphics what matter.

Fro Boy11

997th Post

Red Carpet Regular Member++

"Re(10):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 16:06

Cool avatar and tag, Rid.

Very nice.

Iron D

1998th Post

Gold Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive

"Re(3):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 17:01

quote:
Yeah, I like cell shading as much as the next guy, but it is starting to get out of hand. It's starting to lose the individual style that was the whole point of cell shading in the first place.

Right on, Radish. My opinion exactly. It works for some games, but now it's starting be a bit overdone.

JSR better never be in anything but cel-shading though.

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israfel
17th Post

New Customer

"Re(2):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 17:11

quote:
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Will we ever see a nice Rockman in 2D again? or even a nice 2D game?

Oh put a spoon in it you spoony bard, and wait until you play the game before you judge it!

i just knew whitesword would call someone a spoony bard in his 1000th post. LOL

price is right
97th Post

Occasional Customer

"Re(3):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 17:21

ah, c'mon, cel-shading is just a different...er...umm, style, dont see what the fuss is about, personally, i jsut think, if you dont like it, too bad, what can u do ? like honestly....
how about when sega had their
little "virtua" phase back in the day, though i know its not the greatest thing to compare it too, im sure its still just an experimental thing for some companies...maybe not...but at least give the game a chance before judging it, like some others said....
oh, and if anyone can, list all the cel shaded game out of the thop of ur head, jus wanna see how many people come up with...

my apologies if what i said doesnt make much sense, i have problems o_O

boagman
15th Post

New Customer

"Re(1):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 18:36

quote:
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Will we ever see a nice Rockman in 2D again? or even a nice 2D game?

I don't *hate* cel shading, but it certainly doesn't thrill me, either. It does seem like a type of graphical animation that could go places, but is still in its infancy. I'm not sure I'll like it even as it matures, but I'm not willing to completely write it off yet.

Currently, though, I will say this: it does seem to be used as a graphical crutch lately. It's almost as if the makers are trying to believe that cel-shading is some kind of revolutionary step in graphics...and it's not. It's a step in a different direction, but it's neither evoltionary or revolutionary. "Look! Cel shading!" Um, who cares? If it's not pretty, or animated well, it still falls under the category of "Ugly".

I'm holding off judgment for now, but I sympathize with those who feel that traditional 2D hand-drawn graphics are being killed with cel-shading in certain series *known* for their beautiful/creative hand-drawn graphics.

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Dr Baghead

1564th Post

Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member

"I like CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 20:51

quote:
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Will we ever see a nice Rockman in 2D again? or even a nice 2D game?

I like Cel-shading, but it's usage is getting out of hand... it should only be used for the following:

-a game based on a 2D game/cartoon series were the character's looks are better suited staying "2D" (ie-Megaman X5, an up coming Power Puff Girls game... Samurai Jack if ever made into a 3D game needs cel-shading like the world needs air and water)
-a game trying to get a "cartoony" (read: Tex Avery style zany) effect (ie- as T.E. mentioned Sly Cooper, any Looney Toons game)
-Jet Set Radio games
-Something trying to be unique and fresh with the style (ie-that Capcom racing game, Cel-da, JSR would have been here if it wasn't already defined)

Dragon-warrior

477th Post

Gold Customer

"Re(1):I like CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 21:04

I think cel-shaded is much easier than the solid 3D models specialy when it comes to the small parts(fingers, lips, etc...).
I agree they are using it like hell most of them look awful but I like some of them like Dark cloud 2 it don't look bad, and some of them look just wounderful like the new Zelda!
if they used this technology in the right way it will look like a anime and alot of people wish to play with such a game.

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S-T-E
124th Post

Regular Customer

"Re(4):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Mon 16 Sep 21:09

quote:

oh, and if anyone can, list all the cel shaded game out of the thop of ur head, jus wanna see how many people come up with...

legend of zelda
megaman x7
this new megaman
bomberman generation
jet set radio
jet set radio future
robotech: battle cry
sly cooper
superman
sonic shuffle (?)
bomberman online (?)
harvest moon on ps2 (?)
tales of phantasia on GCN (?)
breath of fire V (?)

i don't really mind the use of cel-shading, but c'mon, megaman should always be hand-drawn 2D imo.

Time Mage

814th Post

Red Carpet Regular Member+

"Re(10):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Tue 17 Sep 01:23

I agree with Whitesword and Rid:

Why don't you wait to play the damn game?

I know it will be cool, it's a Megaman afterall.
About the cel shaded graphics, they're good in my book. And more suited to Megaman than traditional 3D. It's not always bad to change from 2D to 3D, you know...

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Iggy

635th Post

Red Carpet Regular Member

"Re(2):Re(10):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Tue 17 Sep 02:26:

quote:
I agree with Whitesword and Rid:
Why don't you wait to play the damn game?

Mainly because of the awfull pic with Fireman.
And also because cell shading is used everywhere, and especially where it is not needed. It was OK to use it on Jojo, because it was a manga first (and even there, it was far from good on many characters in close up). I don't care if they make BoF ugly with this technique, but Rockman... well, it's Rockman, and Rockman needs 2D!
(I must say I'm from the minority that never liked the changes made to Rockman, especially the X series. The Rockman I liked is the one of the first 8 games + Rockman&Forte).
I may be old and stuff, but I'm touched when I see Square makes Unlimited Saga in a beautifull 2D, not when I see that generic hype cell shading stuff. Things created in 3D are good (like Toron ni Kobun, or even Rockman Dash which was a completely new game with the name "Rockman" on it), porting things from 2D to 3D is just hype or lazyness.
(Maybe the next VS game will be Rockman vs JSR?)

[this message was edited by Iggy on Tue 17 Sep 02:41]

whitesword

1002th Post

Red Carpet Premium Member

"Re(3):Re(10):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Tue 17 Sep 05:49

quote:
porting things from 2D to 3D is just hype or lazyness.

This isn't porting you spoony bard, this is an action game based on an RPG, it won't play like the .EXE series, and it may not even play like a regular Megaman game.

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Time Mage

815th Post

Red Carpet Regular Member+

"Re(4):Re(10):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Tue 17 Sep 08:40

quote:
porting things from 2D to 3D is just hype or lazyness.

This isn't porting you spoony bard, this is an action game based on an RPG, it won't play like the .EXE series, and it may not even play like a regular Megaman game.

That's the point.

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Ishmael
188th Post

Regular Customer

"Re(5):Re(10):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Tue 17 Sep 09:57

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Cool, new Lupin screens! Er, what was the topic again? Oh, yeah, cel shading. Personally I think Capcom's screwed no matter what they do. If they stick with 2D people will complain that they aren't being innovative, unable to do anything new, or what have you but if they do something different purists won't be happy. I'm just happy they're keeping their franchises alive.

greg_cox
90th Post

Occasional Customer

"Re(6):Re(10):I HATE CEL SHADING!!" , posted Wed 18 Sep 21:13

just like to point out there are 2 PC titles that I know of making use of cel shading.

Tsunami 2265
Dragon's Lair 3D

Both are in development. The former being some "anime" inspired robot destruction, the latter being an interesting take on cel shading, by only having the player (its a 3rd person game) cel shaded and the rest of the environment being like any other normal 3D engine. Its nice to see how they have developed it.

also some new console macross game has it too :D .