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| Dr Baghead 1471th Post
 
Red Carpet Executive Member
    
    
    
    
|  "Re(1):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox Box"
, posted Sun 1 Sep 17:22
quote:
i dunno if anyone else saw that piece of crap. anyways, i was wondering, is it just me, or did cartoons take a horrible change for the worse? i never remembered cartoons being so .... annoying. was it always this way?
ugh, watching those previews was the longest 30 minutes of my life
Cartoons haven't gotten worse... it's sort of like videogames... there are just so many bad ones now people are too over whelmed to remember a lot don't suck...
From the 80's we remember Transformers, Thundercats, Ninja Turtles, He-Man, Scooby-Doo, Smurfs... personally I also enjoyed 'the Real Ghostbusters'... good stuff right?
From what we remember cartoons were great... but we forget the absoultely horrid crap like Flinstone Kids or Muppet Babies (note: I like the Muppets, but putting smaller versions of them in a show that's 90% clips from other sources is awful) or Ghostbusters when it became "Slimer and the Real Ghostbusters, what about Captain N?
Now days truely sh*tty cartoons are a dime a dosen... Ed, Edd, and Eddy, Totally Spies, that Mary Kate and Ashley show, Recess, the entire Fox Kids line up, the entire WB kids line up (save Jackie Chan Adventures), Doug, Pelswick, Pepperane, As Told By Giger, The Weekenders, Llyod from Space, Buzz Lightyear of Star Command, and Butt Ugly Martians come to mind...
but you can't over look gems like Invader Zim, Rugrats at times is a brilliant show, Spongebob Squarepants, anything on either Adut Swim, every Cartoon Cartoon (save Edd, Ed, and Eddy), Hamtaro, and my current favorite cartoon Kim Possible (it's animated in the same style as "Clerks: the animated series"!!!).... sure there aren't as many good ones as awful ones, but the fact their ARE good ones proves things haven't gotten worse... you've just gotten old enough to notice a lot more flaws in the bad ones
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| bootation
122th Post
Regular Customer
|  "Re(2):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox Box"
, posted Sun 1 Sep 17:44
Now days truely sh*tty cartoons are a dime a dosen... Ed, Edd, and Eddy, Totally Spies, that Mary Kate and Ashley show, Recess, the entire Fox Kids line up, the entire WB kids line up (save Jackie Chan Adventures), Doug, Pelswick, Pepperane, As Told By Giger, The Weekenders, Llyod from Space, Buzz Lightyear of Star Command, and Butt Ugly Martians come to mind...
Yeah i hate all that shit. The animators who draw those shows must be suicidal.
The only american show i like is Big Buy and Rusty the boy robot cuz its got good animation.(And of course anything by spumco.) But the people who make Hey Arnold the movie should be dropped from an airplane without a parachute.
I think it goes along with all the crap thats supposedly called "music" on mtv. And all the crappy videogames that america pumps out constantly (mary kate and ashley olsen adventures anyone?)
American culture is k-mart quality pure and simple.
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| Radish 258th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(2):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox Box" , posted Sun 1 Sep 18:14:
quote:
i dunno if anyone else saw that piece of crap. anyways, i was wondering, is it just me, or did cartoons take a horrible change for the worse? i never remembered cartoons being so .... annoying. was it always this way?
ugh, watching those previews was the longest 30 minutes of my life
Cartoons haven't gotten worse... it's sort of like videogames... there are just so many bad ones now people are too over whelmed to remember a lot don't suck...
From the 80's we remember Transformers, Thundercats, Ninja Turtles, He-Man, Scooby-Doo, Smurfs... personally I also enjoyed 'the Real Ghostbusters'... good stuff right?
From what we remember cartoons were great... but we forget the absoultely horrid crap like Flinstone Kids or Muppet Babies (note: I like the Muppets, but putting smaller versions of them in a show that's 90% clips from other sources is awful) or Ghostbusters when it became "Slimer and the Real Ghostbusters, what about Captain N?
Now days truely sh*tty cartoons are a dime a dosen... Ed, Edd, and Eddy, Totally Spies, that Mary Kate and Ashley show, Recess, the entire Fox Kids line up, the entire WB kids line up (save Jackie Chan Adventures), Doug, Pelswick, Pepperane, As Told By Giger, The Weekenders, Llyod from Space, Buzz Lightyear of Star Command, and Butt Ugly Martians come to mind...
but you can't over look gems like Invader Zim, Rugrats at times is a brilliant show, Spongebob Squarepants, anything on either Adut Swim, every Cartoon Cartoon (save Edd, Ed, and Eddy), Hamtaro, and my current favorite cartoon Kim Possible (it's animated in the same style as "Clerks: the animated series"!!!).... sure there aren't as many good ones as awful ones, but the fact their ARE good ones proves things haven't gotten worse... you've just gotten old enough to notice a lot more flaws in the bad ones
I'm on pretty much the same page as you, but I really think Muppet Babies was a really good kids show. It was clever enough to be entertaining, yet sneak in educational stuff so you didn't actually know you were learning.
I think I'm the only one who actually remembers it but one of Saban's earliest transnational efforts was that Grimm's Fairy Tales show. It was pretty violent for the time and stuck as close as you could to the original stories without becoming too macabre. Also the animation was much better than most of the shows at the time.
I did see the Fox Box preview and it did look terrible. I mean all of the shows looked like they were thrown together on the loosest shoe string budgets. I know that the budgets for kid's Saturday tv shows are minimal when compared to the likes of the Simpsons or even some of the stuff on Adult Swim, but really the quality of those shows was poor. If the animators can't consistently draw a character within the same episode, you know you have a problem. We all look at the shows we watched as kids through rose colored glasses, but I don't remember kid's programming being so crudely drawn on such a wide scale.
[this message was edited by Radish on Sun 1 Sep 18:20] |
| Hungrywolf 1449th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(3):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox Box" , posted Sun 1 Sep 19:34
quote:
i dunno if anyone else saw that piece of crap. anyways, i was wondering, is it just me, or did cartoons take a horrible change for the worse? i never remembered cartoons being so .... annoying. was it always this way?
ugh, watching those previews was the longest 30 minutes of my life
Cartoons haven't gotten worse... it's sort of like videogames... there are just so many bad ones now people are too over whelmed to remember a lot don't suck...
From the 80's we remember Transformers, Thundercats, Ninja Turtles, He-Man, Scooby-Doo, Smurfs... personally I also enjoyed 'the Real Ghostbusters'... good stuff right?
From what we remember cartoons were great... but we forget the absoultely horrid crap like Flinstone Kids or Muppet Babies (note: I like the Muppets, but putting smaller versions of them in a show that's 90% clips from other sources is awful) or Ghostbusters when it became "Slimer and the Real Ghostbusters, what about Captain N?
Now days truely sh*tty cartoons are a dime a dosen... Ed, Edd, and Eddy, Totally Spies, that Mary Kate and Ashley show, Recess, the entire Fox Kids line up, the entire WB kids line up (save Jackie Chan Adventures), Doug, Pelswick, Pepperane, As Told By Giger, The Weekenders, Llyod from Space, Buzz Lightyear of Star Command, and Butt Ugly Martians come to mind...
but you can't over look gems like Invader Zim, Rugrats at times is a brilliant show, Spongebob Squarepants, anything on either Adut Swim, every Cartoon Cartoon (save Edd, Ed, and Eddy), Hamtaro, and my current favorite cartoon Kim Possible (it's animated in the same style as "Clerks: the animated series"!!!).... sure there aren't as many good ones as awful ones, but the fact their ARE good ones proves things haven't gotten worse... you've just gotten old enough to notice a lot more flaws in the bad ones
I'm on pretty much the same page as you, but I really think Muppet Babies was a really good kids show. It was clever enough to be entertaining, yet sneak in educational stuff so you didn't actually know you were learning.
I think I'm the only one who actually remembers it but one of Saban's earliest transnational efforts was that Grimm's Fairy Tales show. It was pretty violent for the time and stuck as close as you could to the original stories without becoming too macabre. Also the animation was much better than most of the shows at the time.
I did see the Fox Box preview and it did look terrible. I mean all of the shows looked like they were thrown together on the loosest shoe string budgets. I know that the budgets for kid's Saturday tv shows are minimal when compared to the likes of the Simpsons or even some of the stuff on Adult Swim, but really the quality of those shows was poor. If the animators can't consistently draw a character within the same episode, you know you have a problem. We all look at the shows we watched as kids through rose colored glasses, but I don't remember kid's programming being so crudely drawn on such a wide scale.
I liked Muppet Babies, and I think X-men: Evolution a lot. I don't know how Transformers: Armada could've let anyone down yet since I've only seen that they have shown one episode, and I thought the autobots and decepticons looked good. I can't wait to see more. I love the new Masters of the Universe. They new TMNT doesn't come out til later on. I am looking forward to Kirby though.... I liked Captain N too, and the Super Mario Super Show was good.
"Someday we'll find it the rainbow connection..." -Kermit The Muppet Movie
Hungry Like the Wolf
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| Juke Joint Jezebel 823th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
|  "MTV is crap"
, posted Sun 1 Sep 21:26
Dr Baghead: cool! i also like Jackie Chan Adventures. i remember when i first heard of the show, i prayed so much that it would crash in a fiery hellish explosion. but after watching it, it really wasn't bad at all. the commercials that the WB does makes it look like crap. "the ancient art of hip hop!" wtf don't mock old man. one of the funny parts about the show is afterwards when they show the real Jackie Chan talk, not the voice actor. Jackie, how'd you get your name? well, back in [insane gibberish that even i can't understand] BOOM! BAM! [some wacky gestures] and yea, Jack, [more unintelligible speech, more frantic flailing of his arms] Jack .. POW! ... yea, they call me Jackie!
Rid Hershel: god, i also miss Batman Beyond. i have no idea at all why they dumped that show
oh yea, and the Muppet Babies pretty much scarred me. i remember growing up, wanting to become a fking >>TAXI DRIVER<< because i saw Kermit or Piglet or one of those animated puppets "drive to the moon" (as Ralph would say)
dad, what's a muppet? / it's not quite a mop, it's not quite a puppet, but MAN!
Lulled with sound of sweetest melody -- The Midnight Carnival
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| Hungrywolf 1451th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(4):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox Box" , posted Sun 1 Sep 21:26
quote:
I think there's some good U.S. animation out there, Justice League is a great show that wasn't mentioned yet...
Justice Leauge more like "Just-make every episode two parts for no other reason then to make them two parts and always have Superman, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern, and a female do everything while referencing how the show used to be called Super Friends Leauge"
no but seriously, despite it's disturbing lack of Batman and pointlessly strechy 30 minutes of story into 2 episodes, Justice League is cool
I like JL, but I agree they do stretch things too much. I also really, really wish that the GL for it was Hal or Kyle. I'm guessing they are using John so there is a mixed ethnicity to the group. At least he's a character that actually exists though, and they didn't decide to change the background of a character to be another ethnic group, or add a character to the group who shouldn't exist (I refer, of course, to my dislike of Spike on X-men: Evolution. If they had to have someone with that power, they coulda used Marrow (though it would've been weird), plus it'd add another girl to the group (though most people don't seem to like her.....I do.).
"Someday we'll find it the rainbow connection..." -Kermit The Muppet Movie
Hungry Like the Wolf
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| Dr Baghead 1474th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(5):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox Box" , posted Mon 2 Sep 00:21
quote:
I like JL, but I agree they do stretch things too much. I also really, really wish that the GL for it was Hal or Kyle. I'm guessing they are using John so there is a mixed ethnicity to the group. At least he's a character that actually exists though
Yep, that's exactly why John was selected to represent the Green Lantern... to give more varity to the team... However, I sort of wish they had just made up a new name for him because not only is Martian Manhunter called "Jonn" but John Stewar is better known as the host of the Daily Show to most people, and for those who don't know better they'll think the GL is named the host of TDS.
They could have used the excuse "oh, this new fellow found a GL ring right before those aliens attacked in the first episode! So here he is!"... anyone being able to have a GL ring explains away using a new character if they wanted, unlike Spike... you can't just find a magic bone and get Marrow's powers or something...
quote:
god, i also miss Batman Beyond. i have no idea at all why they dumped that show
It was 'canceled' because the creators felt it had run it's course and after so many episodes "retired" it... however they aren't againist continuing it with movies a la RotJ in the future...
[personal ramblings]I like Batman Beyond in theory... but in practice it just sucked, Terry 'killed' far too many people (Mr.Fixx being the only we know dies, I've seen episodes were he leaves people hanging by a thread above fatal drops, he freezes Inque which is something too cruel for old Bats do have every done, I mean Bruce never captured Mr.Freeze by lighting him on fire, he only rescues 'good' characters and lets the villians sit there possibly to die), aside from in RotJ he and Dana show no real emotion towards each other, Terry is far to "in" socially to have the same loner spirit as the original Batman (I mean does he NOT know anyone at that school?), and Terry acts like a 'vessel' most of the time for Bruce who does all the thinking and Terry flys around and hits stuff, and he claim up and down he never was a Robin but when he wears Dick Grayson's tux and takes Nightwings mask when he loses the suit he's obviously in denial over what role he's really in...
Also aside from Superman, WarHawk, and the Wonder Woman replacement everyone in the JLU couldn't have been more then a few years older/younger then Terry... yet he says he worshiped them as heros since he was a boy... it's things like that make me hate BB's logic.
quote:
Inspector Gadget OWNS YOU ALL [ducks and covers]
Drats, another damn fine show I missed when I made that list of Good shows... old cartoon Gadget does indeed, own us all!
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| Hungrywolf 1456th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(6):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox Box" , posted Mon 2 Sep 07:47
quote:
I like JL, but I agree they do stretch things too much. I also really, really wish that the GL for it was Hal or Kyle. I'm guessing they are using John so there is a mixed ethnicity to the group. At least he's a character that actually exists though
Yep, that's exactly why John was selected to represent the Green Lantern... to give more varity to the team... However, I sort of wish they had just made up a new name for him because not only is Martian Manhunter called "Jonn" but John Stewar is better known as the host of the Daily Show to most people, and for those who don't know better they'll think the GL is named the host of TDS.
They could have used the excuse "oh, this new fellow found a GL ring right before those aliens attacked in the first episode! So here he is!"... anyone being able to have a GL ring explains away using a new character if they wanted, unlike Spike... you can't just find a magic bone and get Marrow's powers or something...
god, i also miss Batman Beyond. i have no idea at all why they dumped that show
It was 'canceled' because the creators felt it had run it's course and after so many episodes "retired" it... however they aren't againist continuing it with movies a la RotJ in the future...
[personal ramblings]I like Batman Beyond in theory... but in practice it just sucked, Terry 'killed' far too many people (Mr.Fixx being the only we know dies, I've seen episodes were he leaves people hanging by a thread above fatal drops, he freezes Inque which is something too cruel for old Bats do have every done, I mean Bruce never captured Mr.Freeze by lighting him on fire, he only rescues 'good' characters and lets the villians sit there possibly to die), aside from in RotJ he and Dana show no real emotion towards each other, Terry is far to "in" socially to have the same loner spirit as the original Batman (I mean does he NOT know anyone at that school?), and Terry acts like a 'vessel' most of the time for Bruce who does all the thinking and Terry flys around and hits stuff, and he claim up and down he never was a Robin but when he wears Dick Grayson's tux and takes Nightwings mask when he loses the suit he's obviously in denial over what role he's really in...
Also aside from Superman, WarHawk, and the Wonder Woman replacement everyone in the JLU couldn't have been more then a few years older/younger then Terry... yet he says he worshiped them as heros since he was a boy... it's things like that make me hate BB's logic.
Inspector Gadget OWNS YOU ALL [ducks and covers]
Drats, another damn fine show I missed when I made that list of Good shows... old cartoon Gadget does indeed, own us all!
Ah, but the host of the daily show's name is spelled Jon, not John. LOL. Every time they say his whole name I laugh because it makes me think of the Daily Show.
"Someday we'll find it the rainbow connection..." -Kermit The Muppet Movie
Hungry Like the Wolf
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| ONSLAUGHT 2308th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
| "Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 6 Sep 08:07
quote:
Spongebob really is an awesome show...FOR ME TO POOP ON! No, seriously this show gets on my nerves like few shows ever have.
I really don't get it. It seems that all of the good cartoons are being dumped while all of the crappy and/or annoying cartoons are being pushed to the moon. We're losing great cartoons like Batman Beyond and Invader Zim, while we're getting Spongebob and Ed, Edd, and Eddy shoved down our throats.
And has anyone seen the awful fecal matter that is "Whatever happened to Robot Jones?"? Really, I wonder how cartoons like this and Pelswick are allowed to exist.
Justice League is pure poop, and doesn't hold a candle to Batman or Batman Beyond.
On a positive note, the Powerpuff Girls just seem to be getting better and better. I can't get enough of 'em, and they're just so darned cute (but not sickeningly so).
Well, I think every actual cartoon is crap (with the exception of batman Beyond, Batman, X-Men evolution, the old Fox X-Men, and the old fox Spider-Man among a few others).
I REALLY HATE the powerpuff girls, bob sponge, ed edd and eddy, the cow and chicken, and everything else that shows on tv these days...
It sickens me to the grade of wanting beat my brother with a pipe when he's watching those, those, those... things
I used to like the old cartoons, like Silverhawks, Thundercats, He-Man and the like.
But oh well, I don't use tv anymore, just to watch movies and play videogames, and that's all.
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| Dr Baghead 1487th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(2):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox Box" , posted Fri 6 Sep 21:31
quote:
As a child, like any other unsuspecting American, I grew up on cartoons. And while I loved them then I must admit I've taken a disliking towards the American animation industry. Some of the originals are still pretty cool but America should just give up on trying to create cartoons.
Tashoku, your saying "America should just give up on trying to create cartoons" is as closed minded as someone saying "Anime is nothing but cartoon porn" or "All that Japanimation is just big eye, big boobs, and big robots!".... no one wins when the closeminded makes a broad statement..
quote:
Take some pointers from the Japanese; add a plot. It helps to have some sort of solid story line. Most american cartoons seem to be senseless slap stick humor lacking in grace and tact.
Because we all know 'Fighting Foodons' and 'Yu-Gi-Oh' have such the better plot line then Invader Zim and Kim Possible...
Personally I think Gargoyles (the "offical" series, not "Goliath Chronoicals") has a storyline deeper then any anime you could ever name...
Face it, A LOT of anime is just commericals for toys, games, etc.... as much as American "otaku" want to believe the Japanese rever anime as some higher form of art, it's simply not the case... the anime with plot (at least the ones I think you refer too, unless you consider 'Pokemon' the high point of story) tends not to be for kids, their kids get retarded 30-minute commericals like ours do...
quote:
I mean.. think about what the next generations are growing up on. They're going to think lack of plot is a cool thing. o_O
and they're going to learn that watching every anime 4Kids releases...
quote:
Anime could be in danger of dying out! Ha ha.. I'm just kidding.
Hey! If it would rid the world of closeminded fans like you I hope it does die out! Ha ha.... I'm just kidding. Actually, the fact most Japanese animation companies would rather produce on-going Pokemon-like cartoons rather then short compact series teamed with Japan's wanning economy is putting anime in danger of dying out...
quote:
But honestly... I didn't care too much for animation until anime. Then I fell in love with it. Animation can be a beautiful thing... or it can be one of the most painful experiences on earth. -_-;
I agree with your last statement... anime is what really got me into animation, and it can be either extremely beautiful or extremely awful...
However looking at the animation world without my "Japan is sooooooo great" glasses. I've found both sides of the Pacific have their problems and high points in animation.
Perhapse instead of pretending to be above everyone else you could try to be a solution Tash... A Japanese company would never higher a foreign to work on anime because of their imagration laws... but you have artistic talent, why not make up your own show and pitch it to US companies... anime is very much in right now (that's why they're showing all that 4Kids crap) you could change the face of US animation if you so wanted too, they'd take a good offer for an "anime" show seriously...
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| Hungrywolf 1467th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(2):Anime" , posted Sat 7 Sep 11:17
Cartoon Network did great with Cowboy Bebop. No one should be mad at any american censors for it. I mean, they kept most of it intact except the S-word, some gore, and Gren's breasts (when it shows the nipples). True, some episodes weren't shown, but I think they were shown the first time around. I believe they were all shown at one time or another. Adult Swim is great, and they are doing a good job, so you can't be mad at that. As for the ones that do get cut a lot, if it's being targeted at children, I don't really have too big a problem with it, because I do feel children don't need to see certain things. As for Rurouni Kenshin, if it was shown on Adult Swim, there is nothing that would need to be edited in the series, I don't think (the TV series isn't that bloody or anything, except maybe one scene that shows
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
Shishio cut a guy in half vertically
End of Spoiler
, but that'd be the only thing to get edited). I could care less if Eva made it on TV or not. That anime pissed me off. It really did. Baghead made some great points, about die-hard anime fans in the states hating on American animation.
"Someday we'll find it the rainbow connection..." -Kermit The Muppet Movie
Hungry Like the Wolf
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| Satoshi_Miwa 1440th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(3):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox Box" , posted Sat 7 Sep 17:01
I note, as a big fan of anime (REALLY Big fan) that as much as I love it, I really don't want to see US style animation dissapear.
It still produces stuff I enjoy (Samurai Jack, which I like, and also borrows some styles from anime while remaining very different..) and to have fade away would be very sad, especially considering all of the classic stuff that has been produced in NA (The Looney Tune shorts, the old National Film Board of Canada shorts, the Simpsons). There should still be a home for this style of animation, as well as anime. We shouldn't just get rid off it...(Sure there's been some bad US cartoons, but hey...Lot's of bad anime too..Like the transformers Anime, Dinozaurs, Plastic Little...).
And heck, what's wrong with some Toy Commerical cartoons/anime too? Some may be bad, but others can be quite good...Like old Transformers, he-man, Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon and so on
Dr. Baghead: Actually, just to correct one point, anime companies still do make a decent amount of small ep series that aren't toy commericals. Cable TV and late night time slots are the home for them, and have pretty well taken the place of the OAV.
Hmm, talking about this has reminded me of my dream now...To see either an animated Sandman or Dark Knight Returns be produced. Wish WB would allow Paul Dini to do some direct to Video OAV's....
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| Dr Baghead 1491th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(4):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox Box" , posted Sat 7 Sep 20:24
quote:
And heck, what's wrong with some Toy Commerical cartoons/anime too? Some may be bad, but others can be quite good...Like old Transformers, he-man, Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon and so on
Absolutely nothing is wrong with toy commerical animes/cartoons (and I don't believe Sailor Moon counts as a 'toy commerical', it's based on a manga, not a toy line) I just point it out to show Japan's animation is not just an "artsy mature themed only" medium, it's used to make silly little shows too no better then Ed,Edd,and Eddy or Pelswick...
quote:
Dr. Baghead: Actually, just to correct one point, anime companies still do make a decent amount of small ep series that aren't toy commericals. Cable TV and late night time slots are the home for them, and have pretty well taken the place of the OAV.
Opps, sorry I must have mispharsed something... I meant to say "anime companies would rather create on-going more commcerial series, like Pokemon, then a short niche program like EVA"... I didn't mean short series were 'dead', just that animation studios would trade the western world considers a "Japanese" style (short plot, mature themes, high quality animation) cartoon in favor of producing ones people tend to consider "American style" (never ending plot, 'slapsticky', low quality in favor of more episodes/quick release to tie into a product) cartoons because of the possible income
quote:
Hmm, talking about this has reminded me of my dream now...To see either an animated Sandman or Dark Knight Returns be produced. Wish WB would allow Paul Dini to do some direct to Video OAV's....
Did BB:RotJ sell at all? You'd think now that the "uncut" version is out Dini would be wanting to make some more "darker" DC animations as Direct to Video movies...
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| Satoshi_Miwa 1441th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(5):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox Box" , posted Sat 7 Sep 22:21
quote:
Absolutely nothing is wrong with toy commerical animes/cartoons (and I don't believe Sailor Moon counts as a 'toy commerical', it's based on a manga, not a toy line) I just point it out to show Japan's animation is not just an "artsy mature themed only" medium, it's used to make silly little shows too no better then Ed,Edd,and Eddy or Pelswick...
Like all mediums, Anime sells to the general public. Hence, like you said, it has alot of silly little shows and shows the appeal to a fan based market. It's the nature of the business...
quote:
Opps, sorry I must have mispharsed something... I meant to say "anime companies would rather create on-going more commcerial series, like Pokemon, then a short niche program like EVA"... I didn't mean short series were 'dead', just that animation studios would trade the western world considers a "Japanese" style (short plot, mature themes, high quality animation) cartoon in favor of producing ones people tend to consider "American style" (never ending plot, 'slapsticky', low quality in favor of more episodes/quick release to tie into a product) cartoons because of the possible income
Depends on the company, actually...Toei seems to do nothing but put the high-ep series like Dragon Ball/DBZ, Digimon, and that ilk. Sunrise/Bandai does both, doing mass market anime and a lot of niche titles. Gainax does what Gainax wants, regardless if it's for the good or bad of the company (^^). And AIC, when it gets away from Tenchi, actually can do some good stuff. So it's not all just toy anime, though it's still a big part of the pie...
Actually this is one area where the US market has helped Japan, as the incoming US money (From licensing and what not) has allowed more niche productions to get off the ground or hit a higher episode count. Big O season 2 wouldn't exists without the Cartoon Network, Pioneer US sunk money into Hellsing and Strawberry Egg, and ADV has a few projects going (Though those are appealing to the fan-service market, which makes it a different form of the toy anime...:)
quote:
Did BB:RotJ sell at all? You'd think now that the "uncut" version is out Dini would be wanting to make some more "darker" DC animations as Direct to Video movies...
I'd imagine it sold well enough for WB to release an Uncut version, the question is did it sell well enough to get the production wheels in motion for more stuff like this? I hope so, and I suspect the CN will lead the charge here as well as they also seem to be wanting more edgy/mature stuff (and a Sandman cartoon would fit that perfectly...)
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| Dr Baghead 1492th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(6):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox Box" , posted Sun 8 Sep 11:52
quote:
When I used to work at Blockbuster it didn't seem to get too many sales, sorta average. Didn't know there was an unedited version. Haven't seen either by the way.
BTW, Dr. Baghead what is you email? That is, if you don't mind giving it out.
My e-mail address is HittoshimaShougo@hotmail.com
so RotJ did average, eh? (thought continued later)
quote:
Ehh.. to me American animation is about as disgusting as vomitting contests. I'm not truely a closed minded person and I'll admit when any artist has talent. But on a general whole American stuff just sucks. Of course.. this only my opinion and others are open to different views of it. I certainly don't get upset when someone says they hate anime or if they like vomitting contests. ^_^ It's just my humble opinion, for whatever it's worth.
Saying "on a general whole American stuff just sucks" is a VERY closed-minded statement. You are intitled to your opens of course, but it doesn't mean you can insult shows like Gargoyles, the Simpsons, and Invader Zim which work hard to be entertaining and enjoyable because you dislike (or you seem to anyway) an "idea" that American cartoons are all lowbrow poo and fart jokes like Ed,Edd,and Eddy or Totally Spies
I could probably name off as more "good" American cartoons as you can name off "good" animes. So let's stop making broad generalizations, it's just silly
quote:
I'd imagine it sold well enough for WB to release an Uncut version, the question is did it sell well enough to get the production wheels in motion for more stuff like this? I hope so, and I suspect the CN will lead the charge here as well as they also seem to be wanting more edgy/mature stuff (and a Sandman cartoon would fit that perfectly...)
Dini and Bruce said they would have liked to continue BB as direct to video movies... so the million dollar question is, why hasn't a new one been made yet?
It's either because Justice League is keeping them too busy (it takes a lot of work to strech a 15 minute plot to episodes, AND fill it with unneeded Super Friends throwbacks) or because the WB doesn't seem to understand it's their fault no one bought the cut version of RotJ (and most didn't know/care that the uncut version came out)
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| Dr Baghead 1496th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(8):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox Box" , posted Sun 8 Sep 20:21:
quote:
Totally Spies is french, or at least done in France (I know a few people who worked on it).
Really?! Wow, learn something new everyday... damn, I guess I need to change my "admit defeat" pharse from 'If I can't work at Warner Brothers, there's always Totally Spies' to something else...
quote:
But it's absolutely stupid anyways. My friend told me they were going to adapt a few famous french comics (Yoko Tsuno, for example) but although the original character was a 25 years old girl travelling around the world, in the animated series she will become an american teenager in a college in Beverly Hills because some very clever guy said that the USA audience will not like it otherwise.
Wait... who is the main character in Totally Spies? Sam or Clover?... and that's a college they go to? I thought it was a High School... and while I'm at it asking questions about the show, what the Hell kind of nationality is Alex suppost to be? was the line "if you ever need your corn inspected..." suppost to come off so terribly dirty? why did Clover look better Fat in that episode with the cookies then how they normally draw her? Who is Mandy suppost to rival anyway? Why do the "anime effects" get either a lame sound effect (like a 'tear drop' going BONK!) or a bizarre reaction as if it was actually happening (several times Alex has pulled an umbrella or something in a direct reaction to something that should exist only to those outside the 3rd Wall)? and I won't argue that girl spies would have tools shaped like hair dries, make-up, and other things girls like but would they all be hot-pink? wouldn't spies know to use a darker color? blue maybe?
Despite my many questions, I thank you for that dark and distrubing look into what made Totally Spies awful...
quote:
It's like if you adapted Batman for what you think is a french audience, and you make him fight dressed with a beret (a dark beret, of course) and throwing batabaguettes to some german villains. And Bruce Waine would be a soccer player.
That's a bad example because Totally Spies sucks ass... and that version of Batman sounds badass! He should also build his weapons from varrious Cheeses and smoke while looking out a window saying stuff like "life... [inhale]... it is dark and meaning less [exhales]... much like this thing we call 'justice'" while in black and white...
wait, no... you're right that is bad...
[this message was edited by Dr Baghead on Sun 8 Sep 20:25] |
| ZamIAm 612th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Can't contain it..." , posted Sun 8 Sep 21:26
quote:
Totally Spies is french, or at least done in France (I know a few people who worked on it).
Really?! Wow, learn something new everyday... damn, I guess I need to change my "admit defeat" pharse from 'If I can't work at Warner Brothers, there's always Totally Spies' to something else...
But it's absolutely stupid anyways. My friend told me they were going to adapt a few famous french comics (Yoko Tsuno, for example) but although the original character was a 25 years old girl travelling around the world, in the animated series she will become an american teenager in a college in Beverly Hills because some very clever guy said that the USA audience will not like it otherwise.
Wait... who is the main character in Totally Spies? Sam or Clover?... and that's a college they go to? I thought it was a High School... and while I'm at it asking questions about the show, what the Hell kind of nationality is Alex suppost to be? was the line "if you ever need your corn inspected..." suppost to come off so terribly dirty? why did Clover look better Fat in that episode with the cookies then how they normally draw her? Who is Mandy suppost to rival anyway? Why do the "anime effects" get either a lame sound effect (like a 'tear drop' going BONK!) or a bizarre reaction as if it was actually happening (several times Alex has pulled an umbrella or something in a direct reaction to something that should exist only to those outside the 3rd Wall)? and I won't argue that girl spies would have tools shaped like hair dries, make-up, and other things girls like but would they all be hot-pink? wouldn't spies know to use a darker color? blue maybe?
Despite my many questions, I thank you for that dark and distrubing look into what made Totally Spies awful...
It's like if you adapted Batman for what you think is a french audience, and you make him fight dressed with a beret (a dark beret, of course) and throwing batabaguettes to some german villains. And Bruce Waine would be a soccer player.
That's a bad example because Totally Spies sucks ass... and that version of Batman sounds badass! He should also build his weapons from varrious Cheeses and smoke while looking out a window saying stuff like "life... [inhale]... it is dark and meaning less [exhales]... much like this thing we call 'justice'" while in black and white...
wait, no... you're right that is bad...
LOL![/b]
Hey wait, you came up something cheesier than me. No fair...
"Might as well face it: You're addicted to love."
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| Satoshi_Miwa 1444th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(9):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox Box" , posted Sun 8 Sep 22:56
quote:
hmmm, you know I never thought that a CN airing would be reason to create a direct to video movie, but then again that does explain why Scooby Doo and the [Witch's Ghost/Zombie Island/Alien Invaders/Cyber Chase] ended up in "Cartoon Theater" no less then a month after their video release (and I'd wager the next one does the same)
Oh! and BB:RotJ(edited) was on a Friday Toonami already, so that's just more proof...
it's almost scary how much force the CN has in animation right now in the US, be it anime or domestic productions. It truly is the powerhouse animation channel, and has a great thirst for almost any kinda of animation programming...
And I wish we got it up here instead of the lame ass Canadian Cartoon Channel, Teletoon...
But yeah, aiuring a show on TV and then spinning it out to video is a great way to make money on a product and build up fans for a series. It allows people to jump onto a product easier, and keeps Die-hard fans happy. I just hope the WB keeps it up, and goes into it's back catalouge for more animation DVD's (Like Batman, and an uncut Looney Tunes Box Set...I'd know many a people that would kill for that).
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| Ultima 274th Post
Copper Customer
|  "Re(10):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox Box"
, posted Mon 9 Sep 09:10
Not much to add here, except this: On both sides of the Pacific, most of all animation is crap. That is all.
On a side note, Muppet Babbies ruled the fucking earth. Trust me, much like Sesame Street BE (i.e. Before Elmo), there were elements put into each show so that older children and adults could watch it without gagging. Plus the songs ruled. ^_^
Concerning Old Cartoons: I have always hated Scooby Doo with a passion. Holy Forumlaic Episodes Batman. And after a while I really didn't care for Smurfs. And animation aside, He-man was pretty shitty.
Concerning new Cartoons: Powerpuff girls is surprisingly good, IMO. I find Samurai Jack to be very overrated. I dislike the artwork and the cliche story and fighting sequences. I really don't care for Dexter's Lab, but I can see it being a dceent show. Johnny Bravo cracks me up. I find Courage the Cowardly Dog to be quite amusing as well, oddly enough. That dog goes through WAY too much shit. Aside from those, nothing produced lately I've really cared for.
Oh yeah: I wish I had Cartoon Network USA. On my country (which as a whole steals Cable from South America), we get Cartoon Network INternational, where a good chunk of the shows (including DBZ) is in Spanish. On one hand, it's pretty much unedited (Ruroni Kenshin included, though I don't think there's really much to edit). On the other hand, I can't understand what the hell is going on. And we don't get Adult Swim or any of the new shows that CNUSA puts out until LONG afterwards (e.g. Samurai Jack's 1st episode showed for the first time last Friday).
Oh yeah: I consider dubbed Ruroni Kenshin (aka "Samurai X" - *shudders*) to be unwatchable. The voices are beyond terrible.
--
Ultima - The Right arm of Scrub Voltron
http://uramble.com/index.html - U's Rambling Page
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| Tashoku Kisune 947th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(2):Re(10):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox " , posted Tue 10 Sep 08:12
quote:
How can opinions be wrong when they're based entirely on one's emotions and interpretations of their environment? That's like saying how I feel about the color red is wrong because it's an opinion.
How can opinions be wrong when they're based entirely on one's emotions and interpretations of their environment? Here, I'll show you...
It is my opinion that Ruonin Kenshin (or Samurai X if you prefer) is by far the worse show ever made!
Now, that's my opinion... that Kenshin sucks. But does it? No, it has legions of fans around the world who would beat me to death just for saying that. In fact! The worse show ever made is actually "Jerry Springer" according to TV Guide! So see my opinion has been proven wrong, doesn't mean I still don't believe it, but it doesn't mean I'm right.
You're saying that as a rule American Cartoon toons suck and would improve if they had more story like Japanese ones... when in fact many American cartoons are on equal in terms of quality to their Japanese counterparts, and until proven otherwise it is my opinion Gargoyles has the deepest plot of any animated world I've ever seen.... it can be your opinion that American cartoons suck, but there's over whelming evidence that points to the opposite...
It seems to be that you're no different than the Kenshin fans you mentioned. Are you in a huff because I insulted American cartoons?
Truth is, the hoards of followers that Kenshin has is based entirely on opinion; the opinions of those followers. When counted up it seems like a fact. But there's no absolutel formula, no yes or no answer to say.. "this sucks" or "this is good". The number of fans a show has doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad or good at all. I've seen some movies that critics hated and so most people never went to see it.. yet, it was a good movie.. or at least, in my opinion. Mentioning the fans doesn't have much to do with the "fact" that something is good or bad. There really isn't a way you can "prove" that something is good or bad.
When it comes to this it truely is an opinion. And your opinion of what's good is based on something completely different from my opinion. I look at it from a completely different point of view. Comming to a "proven" conclusion will never happen, don't wait too long for it.
((Oh, and Talbain... if you happen to be reading this. I'm beginning to understand clearly what you mentioned in your emails a while ago.))
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| Dr Baghead 1506th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(3):Re(10):Cartoons ... and WTF is the Fox" , posted Tue 10 Sep 17:37:
quote:
It seems to be that you're no different than the Kenshin fans you mentioned. Are you in a huff because I insulted American cartoons?
Of course I'm huffed you insult American cartoons. I don't appricate people insulting my future career based on nothing more then a retarded bias implanned by the masses of "otaku culture" who have decided Japan has formed a Superior nation whose animation is unsurpassable and all other forms of such art are shit.
quote:
Truth is, the hoards of followers that Kenshin has is based entirely on opinion; the opinions of those followers. When counted up it seems like a fact. But there's no absolutel formula, no yes or no answer to say.. "this sucks" or "this is good". The number of fans a show has doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad or good at all. I've seen some movies that critics hated and so most people never went to see it.. yet, it was a good movie.. or at least, in my opinion. Mentioning the fans doesn't have much to do with the "fact" that something is good or bad. There really isn't a way you can "prove" that something is good or bad.
Well it's the majority's opinion that after Siskel died every film critic on earth became a walking joke. (and not the funny kind, like Jay Sherman of "the Critic", I mean the sad kind, like Richard Roper) Often times the view of the "majority" is considered a truth... it's called a "market sample"....
at any rate, you can judge by production vaules if a show is "good" or "bad" it doesn't take a genius to spot 'good' or 'bad' quality animation/writing (unless their head is clouded by bias and said animation/writing isn't in a style they enjoy)
anyway if it makes you happy, fine, your opinion isn't "wrong" it's just "unjustified and not based in facts"
quote:
When it comes to this it truely is an opinion. And your opinion of what's good is based on something completely different from my opinion. I look at it from a completely different point of view. Comming to a "proven" conclusion will never happen, don't wait too long for it.
You want "proof" American cartoons are no worse then Japanese one, okay!
1-Aside from a different approach in styles you'd never know Japanese and American cartoons are both mainly animated in Korea. So there's no difference in techiniques used to create them.
2-Every non-Disney animated show/feature film is animated on 2's or less including anime. Disney animates on 1's. (This of course refers to frames per second, Disney animates on 1's to get extremely fluid motions, other shows animated on 2's becausr it's cheaper) So in terms of "quality" Disney, makers of such American cartoons as Kim Possible and Gargoyles, wins bar none.
3-Not every Japanese cartoon is brought to America, many left on the other side of the Pacific are kids shows, the animation at times is sub-par and fart-jokes are just as plentiful as American kid shows.
there, facts. Weeeee.
quote:
((Oh, and Talbain... if you happen to be reading this. I'm beginning to understand clearly what you mentioned in your emails a while ago.))
yes I am a major dickhead, thanks for noticing. But I only take on such a persona when something important to me is insulted without cause. I've apologized to T.E. for what happened in the Ryu's birthday thread and he doesn't seem to hold it againist me. I'm willing to forgive you if you're willing to admit America can make good cartoons. (but if you won't, hey I understand. I was young once too, I went through the whole "ANIME ROOLS! CARTOONS SUX!" phase. Ah, what I rebel I was... I refused to see Hercules! But I snapped out of it, and now I can enjoy cartoons from both sides of the Pacific. I can watch Kim Possible and notice how much of it's style is influenced by Clerks:the animated series, then watch Ranma 1/2 and notice how much of it's style is influenced by Urusei Yatsurei...)
[this message was edited by Dr Baghead on Tue 10 Sep 17:55] |
| Tashoku Kisune 950th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "a last comment" , posted Tue 10 Sep 18:35
quote:
It seems to be that you're no different than the Kenshin fans you mentioned. Are you in a huff because I insulted American cartoons?
Of course I'm huffed you insult American cartoons. I don't appricate people insulting my future career based on nothing more then a retarded bias implanned by the masses of "otaku culture" who have decided Japan has formed a Superior nation whose animation is unsurpassable and all other forms of such art are shit.
Truth is, the hoards of followers that Kenshin has is based entirely on opinion; the opinions of those followers. When counted up it seems like a fact. But there's no absolutel formula, no yes or no answer to say.. "this sucks" or "this is good". The number of fans a show has doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad or good at all. I've seen some movies that critics hated and so most people never went to see it.. yet, it was a good movie.. or at least, in my opinion. Mentioning the fans doesn't have much to do with the "fact" that something is good or bad. There really isn't a way you can "prove" that something is good or bad.
Well it's the majority's opinion that after Siskel died every film critic on earth became a walking joke. (and not the funny kind, like Jay Sherman of "the Critic", I mean the sad kind, like Richard Roper) Often times the view of the "majority" is considered a truth... it's called a "market sample"....
at any rate, you can judge by production vaules if a show is "good" or "bad" it doesn't take a genius to spot 'good' or 'bad' quality animation/writing (unless their head is clouded by bias and said animation/writing isn't in a style they enjoy)
anyway if it makes you happy, fine, your opinion isn't "wrong" it's just "unjustified and not based in facts"
When it comes to this it truely is an opinion. And your opinion of what's good is based on something completely different from my opinion. I look at it from a completely different point of view. Comming to a "proven" conclusion will never happen, don't wait too long for it.
You want "proof" American cartoons are no worse then Japanese one, okay!
1-Aside from a different approach in styles you'd never know Japanese and American cartoons are both mainly animated in Korea. So there's no difference in techiniques used to create them.
2-Every non-Disney animated show/feature film is animated on 2's or less including anime. Disney animates on 1's. (This of course refers to frames per second, Disney animates on 1's to get extremely fluid motions, other shows animated on 2's becausr it's cheaper) So in terms of "quality" Disney, makers of such American cartoons as Kim Possible and Gargoyles, wins bar none.
3-Not every Japanese cartoon is brought to America, many left on the other side of the Pacific are kids shows, the animation at times is sub-par and fart-jokes are just as plentiful as American kid shows.
there, facts. Weeeee.
((Oh, and Talbain... if you happen to be reading this. I'm beginning to understand clearly what you mentioned in your emails a while ago.))
yes I am a major dickhead, thanks for noticing. But I only take on such a persona when something important to me is insulted without cause. I've apologized to T.E. for what happened in the Ryu's birthday thread and he doesn't seem to hold it againist me. I'm willing to forgive you if you're willing to admit America can make good cartoons. (but if you won't, hey I understand. I was young once too, I went through the whole "ANIME ROOLS! CARTOONS SUX!" phase. Ah, what I rebel I was... I refused to see Hercules! But I snapped out of it, and now I can enjoy cartoons from both sides of the Pacific. I can watch Kim Possible and notice how much of it's style is influenced by Clerks:the animated series, then watch Ranma 1/2 and notice how much of it's style is influenced by Urusei Yatsurei...)
Ehhh.. I have many things I could comment on that. But I'm tiring of this petty debate. Opinions are opinions, they can't be right or wrong if they're just the personal reflections on something by an individual person.
Webster's Dictionary states: Opinion- n. 1. belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. 2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
I think that pretty much said what I wanted to say with more authority than anyone would have believed of me.
there's nothing to get upset about with opinions because it CAN'T be certain. So you shouldn't be in a huff about me insulting American animation. I'm not in a huff about you insulting me, that's for sure. So let it all be at peace.
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| wingzero 1008th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member
| "Re(2):tama and friends" , posted Tue 10 Sep 18:51
quote:
monster rancher was alright but i didnt like the ending.
I never got to see it, what happened? Use the "Spoiler" if necessary...
well.. here goes
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
K, they find the phoenix but they cant get it to revive for some reason, its soul is gone or something. there is just a body. sooo, turns out the phoenix's soul was split up into 5 parts and implanted into different monsters. guess what! those monsters are the ones genki's been hangin' with. so, genki's little monster buddies decide for the greater good they'll join into the body of the phoenix and kill muu. bla bla bla, they kill him(oh yeah genki's friends are now permanently the phoenix now). Genki is sad, goes back to his own world, sad some more, has a vision of his monster buddies, they say"dont worry, be happy" and that makes him feel better somehow. kinda a sad lil' ending.
End of Spoiler
wow, sorry for the length but i couldnt find a shorter way of sayin' it.
shrapnel
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(I'll probably go see it September 14 here in Boulder, CO.) 
"M.A.D." 
"Re(1):Masters of the Universe" 
