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| DKW
143th Post
 
Regular Customer
   
|  "Fighting game roster theory"
, posted Mon 26 Aug 00:30
[Note: I've posted this at Gamefaqs as well.]
Well, the unthinkable has happened. One of the pillars of SNK fighting games, someone who’s been there from the very beginning, will not be in KOF again, probably ever.
I’m not about to delve into Eolith’s motives (I’m having a hard enough time trying to understand why the ’01 portraits are so damn ugly). I’m just going to try to make sense of what’s going on, and hopefully this amazing excision can be, if not justifiable, at least explicable.
Start from the beginning...
When creating the lineup for a fighting game, the three biggest concerns are a wide variety of characters and styles, balance (i.e., no one has a big advantage or disadvantage over the rest), and characters that players are actually going to pick. Now, if the designers can just create anyone they want, that’s not a problem. Note SF2, where the entire roster consisted of easily-identifiable “archtype” fighters. Capcom was obviously creating characters who’d be recognizable right away and memorable, and it worked. SNK did something similar with Fatal Fury 2 and, to a somewhat lesser extent, Art of Fighting.
The problem arises when the company continues the line. See, the thing about certain characters is that, well, they frequently become popular. Some become so popular that they spawn a plethora of lookalikes and knockoffs (any coincidence that there are so many “Ryu clones”?). Furthermore, since these are often the most balanced, playable characters, removing them means severely upsetting play balance AND leaving the roster with no balanced characters...a triple whammy. I’m sure we’re all aware of the story behind the SF3 beta.
How to get rid of a well-established, integral, and let’s not forget extremely popular character? Some companies don’t even see any reason to. I mean, why can someone who’s making them money? Some companies try to do this but receive such a negative response that they’re quick to recant (nb. MK3). Others drop characters purportedly for being too old or played out, but replace them with surrogates, i.e. characters that are virtually identical. Namco is notorious for this, and even Capcom sometimes can’t resist the urge (Remy, Hugo, Q, and Sean were definitely not original designs).
Anyway, the end result is that when new blood is called for (as it is in nearly every new game), it’s too often the offbeat, unorthodox, or “bizarre” characters that get the shaft. KOF has already burned through enough such people to start their own game.
And then we have the issue of (ahem) badly-designed stories. Tekken was doing fine until they had to have Ogre go on a killing rampage. Since Namco isn’t as cavalier about resurrection as SNK or Capcom, this meant that a number of original characters, some of whom were pretty popular, were knocked out for good. And of course, the entire Tekken world had to be shoved ahead 20 years...so Jun’s kid would be in fighting form. Repeat, a massive paradigm change for the sake of ONE PERSON, and one virtually identical to the person he replaced (there’s that surrogate thing again). The upshot was that by the time of Tekken 4, all they had were a bunch of old hands, the one huge megastar (Jin), the obligatory comeback kid (Kazuya) and a tiny handful of original characters. (Oh yeah, and Christie, another friggin’ surrogate). Is it any wonder many Tekken players prefer Tag Tournament to it?
Now, let’s take a look at KOF. The ones that have been in every game up until ’01 are Terry, Andy, Joe, Ryo, Robert, Yuri, Kyo, Benimaru, Sie, Athena, Chin, Kim, Chang, Choi, King, Mai, Ralf, and Clark. No surprises here; very balanced for the most part, and even the “weird” ones aren’t too hard to get used to. The other longtimers are Iori, Leona, Goro, and Shingo. Goro has less commitment than Kyo or Benimaru but nonetheless is in KOF more often than not; the others have familiar styles. The ones that didn’t last either never caught on, didn’t fit into the huge megastory, or simply were neglected to death. The Sports Team and Eiji are prime examples. Others were so completely linked to the Orochi epic that there was nothing left for them when it ended...New Face Team, anyone?
But a Dream Match changes everything. There are no restrictions to who can be in. No megastory means none of the hang-ups associated with said megastory.
Meaning that for ’02, Eolith had three big, powerful groups clamoring for a shot. The well-established, extremely popular, and irreplaceable lifers. The champions of the past, some of them very popular, who, freed from story limitations, can get in there and kick butt once again. And the new stars, the ones who just got on board in ’00 and ’01, looking for their big break.
Ideally, they should all be in it. That’s exactly what a dream match is...that’s what KOF is. But because of the now-extremely glaring hardware limitations, Eolith had to be very selective.
So Jhun, who never got a chance, is out. And the on-again off-again Kasumi is out, as well as Li. As well as the tragically maligned Sports Team, Bao, and Hinako. Cut after were cut was made. But in the end, one more person had to go.
And somewhere, someone dug up some backstory about how King was “forced” into ’00 and that she “didn’t want to fight anymore”.
Again, I’m not saying it’s justifiable. But there are reasons these seemingly ridiculous decisions get made.
Comments?
homepage - http://home.hawaii.rr.com/dkwff
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Replies:
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| Iggy 491th Post
Gold Customer
    
| "Re(1):Fighting game roster theory" , posted Mon 26 Aug 02:09
quote:
Comments?
I think the problem with KOF, at least, is that 30 characters on 40 don't change year after year. The core cast is always the same, and that make them even more core characters. I think the casting should have be more free from long ago (some years without Iori, Leona who should have died after KOF 97, a "Southtown Team" in place of the FF/AoF teams, and whose members would change every year, why not some years without the psycho team and Athena going to the girls team for one year, etc.) This would have added much more variety to the games (and would have be a good thing for the dream matches, to put characters like Terry, Andy, Joe, Robert and Takuma who would never have been in the same game at the same time) and maybe would have added even more hype each year (since in a non-dream match year, the only news are 2 side kicks that leave and 4-6 new characters, and that's it).
Anyways, I think many of those who have been around for all these years should take a break (like Goro did) from the official storyline and only come back for the dreammatches.
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| Zyzyfer 563th Post
New Red Carpet Member
 
|  "The cloning story"
, posted Mon 26 Aug 08:49
i've played through the '99 endings about a bazillion times, that being my favorite game out of the series and all.
the cloning stuff more or less goes like this:
k' has genetic data implanted in him from kyo, enabling him to weild fire. however, he isn't the finished product, but instead an escaped loose cannon of sorts.
krizalid is k's clone. note the similarities to their fallen sprites. despite that, it's explained in...the ikari ending. krizalid was supposed to be the finished product that k' was the middleman on.
whip apparently is a clone. that info wasn't opened up until 2k1, but it's been opened, to be used or not.
kula and k9999 are almost like genetic mutations. they're not really clones of anyone, but more like test-tube babies...or something. i could be wrong about kula, though...i've heard a *rumor* that diana is her mother. k9999 is definitely a test-tube freak though.
i won't buy the whip clone story until they wrap it up, so as far as i'm concerned, krizalid and the kyo clones were the only clones, and oh yea...zero in 2k. but he sucked. the whole clone story seemed to actually die out in '99 with krizalid, but it seemed like they had it there and had to roll with it, so they said "so and so is a clone." the term is used very loosely in the story, i'd reckon.
I don't mind the sun sometimes the image as it shows
I can taste you on my lips and smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and sugary and softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look through other peoples' eyes...
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| Gen 565th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(1):The cloning story" , posted Mon 26 Aug 12:43
quote:
i've played through the '99 endings about a bazillion times, that being my favorite game out of the series and all.
the cloning stuff more or less goes like this:
k' has genetic data implanted in him from kyo, enabling him to weild fire. however, he isn't the finished product, but instead an escaped loose cannon of sorts.
krizalid is k's clone. note the similarities to their fallen sprites. despite that, it's explained in...the ikari ending. krizalid was supposed to be the finished product that k' was the middleman on.
whip apparently is a clone. that info wasn't opened up until 2k1, but it's been opened, to be used or not.
kula and k9999 are almost like genetic mutations. they're not really clones of anyone, but more like test-tube babies...or something. i could be wrong about kula, though...i've heard a *rumor* that diana is her mother. k9999 is definitely a test-tube freak though.
i won't buy the whip clone story until they wrap it up, so as far as i'm concerned, krizalid and the kyo clones were the only clones, and oh yea...zero in 2k. but he sucked. the whole clone story seemed to actually die out in '99 with krizalid, but it seemed like they had it there and had to roll with it, so they said "so and so is a clone." the term is used very loosely in the story, i'd reckon.
Another possibly is when KoF says "clones" in the English version, they mean genetically modified people and not clones from conception. It's a stretcher.
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| DKW
144th Post
Regular Customer
| "more" , posted Tue 27 Aug 02:07
Oops, thought everyone already knew about the invamous SF3 beta. Well, here's the deal. Capcom origianlly intended SF3 to be a complete new beginning...i.e., NO ONE from ANY prefious SF. Yes, that meant no Ryu or Ken (let alone Akuma or Chun Li). Bet they figured that the Ansatsu brothers were "old" and that people were tired of them and no one would miss them. Result: No one played the SF3 beta. No one at all. If Ryu and Ken's stories in New Generation seem rather, well, hastily mucked up, now you know why.
Found out from the Soul Calibur II board that Namco's institued a "no clones policy", meaning that there will no longer be two versions of the same character in any of their games. An obvious backlash to the supposed preponderance of "clones" in other fighting games. Of course, never mind the fact that Forrest Law is a virtual duplicate of Marshall. Or that Jin was designed from the ground up as a replacement for Kazuya (it wasn't until they brought Kaz back that Jin became his own person). Or how about not one, not two, but FOUR Jacks. Need I even mention Lizardman, Maxi, Astaroth, Hong, and Cassandra? I suppose it's perfectly all right to create carbon copies as long as you don't put them in the same game as the original. 
homepage - http://home.hawaii.rr.com/dkwff
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| TiamatRoar
187th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(3):The cloning story" , posted Tue 27 Aug 18:56
quote:
Interesting (and in-depth) post--the whole 'recurring' thing really does get to be a problem. On some level, editing of characters ever so often almost needs to be done if there's to be another game. I love my SF Zero 3 the best of any of 'em, but there's -no one- missing who could be there for next time. So you can, from that, either knock out some old charas for a while (they'll come back, which is what happened throughout the Zero development anyway), or...make more new characters like... er...R.Mika. 'nuff said.
Maou
Probably one of the main reasons why Alpha 3 was declared by Capcom to be the final Alpha game and that they would make no more.
On a random note, Ryu and Ken actually did make it to beta, but for a while before the game entered Beta, Capcom wasn't going to have them until there was a fan outcry. But... eh, close enough. The jist of the story is the same.
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| Hungrywolf 1422th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
    
  
| "Re(1):Fighting game roster theory" , posted Tue 27 Aug 20:03
quote:
[Note: I've posted this at Gamefaqs as well.]
Well, the unthinkable has happened. One of the pillars of SNK fighting games, someone who’s been there from the very beginning, will not be in KOF again, probably ever.
I’m not about to delve into Eolith’s motives (I’m having a hard enough time trying to understand why the ’01 portraits are so damn ugly). I’m just going to try to make sense of what’s going on, and hopefully this amazing excision can be, if not justifiable, at least explicable.
Start from the beginning...
When creating the lineup for a fighting game, the three biggest concerns are a wide variety of characters and styles, balance (i.e., no one has a big advantage or disadvantage over the rest), and characters that players are actually going to pick. Now, if the designers can just create anyone they want, that’s not a problem. Note SF2, where the entire roster consisted of easily-identifiable “archtype” fighters. Capcom was obviously creating characters who’d be recognizable right away and memorable, and it worked. SNK did something similar with Fatal Fury 2 and, to a somewhat lesser extent, Art of Fighting.
The problem arises when the company continues the line. See, the thing about certain characters is that, well, they frequently become popular. Some become so popular that they spawn a plethora of lookalikes and knockoffs (any coincidence that there are so many “Ryu clones”?). Furthermore, since these are often the most balanced, playable characters, removing them means severely upsetting play balance AND leaving the roster with no balanced characters...a triple whammy. I’m sure we’re all aware of the story behind the SF3 beta.
How to get rid of a well-established, integral, and let’s not forget extremely popular character? Some companies don’t even see any reason to. I mean, why can someone who’s making them money? Some companies try to do this but receive such a negative response that they’re quick to recant (nb. MK3). Others drop characters purportedly for being too old or played out, but replace them with surrogates, i.e. characters that are virtually identical. Namco is notorious for this, and even Capcom sometimes can’t resist the urge (Remy, Hugo, Q, and Sean were definitely not original designs).
Anyway, the end result is that when new blood is called for (as it is in nearly every new game), it’s too often the offbeat, unorthodox, or “bizarre” characters that get the shaft. KOF has already burned through enough such people to start their own game.
And then we have the issue of (ahem) badly-designed stories. Tekken was doing fine until they had to have Ogre go on a killing rampage. Since Namco isn’t as cavalier about resurrection as SNK or Capcom, this meant that a number of original characters, some of whom were pretty popular, were knocked out for good. And of course, the entire Tekken world had to be shoved ahead 20 years...so Jun’s kid would be in fighting form. Repeat, a massive paradigm change for the sake of ONE PERSON, and one virtually identical to the person he replaced (there’s that surrogate thing again). The upshot was that by the time of Tekken 4, all they had were a bunch of old hands, the one huge megastar (Jin), the obligatory comeback kid (Kazuya) and a tiny handful of original characters. (Oh yeah, and Christie, another friggin’ surrogate). Is it any wonder many Tekken players prefer Tag Tournament to it?
Now, let’s take a look at KOF. The ones that have been in every game up until ’01 are Terry, Andy, Joe, Ryo, Robert, Yuri, Kyo, Benimaru, Sie, Athena, Chin, Kim, Chang, Choi, King, Mai, Ralf, and Clark. No surprises here; very balanced for the most part, and even the “weird” ones aren’t too hard to get used to. The other longtimers are Iori, Leona, Goro, and Shingo. Goro has less commitment than Kyo or Benimaru but nonetheless is in KOF more often than not; the others have familiar styles. The ones that didn’t last either never caught on, didn’t fit into the huge megastory, or simply were neglected to death. The Sports Team and Eiji are prime examples. Others were so completely linked to the Orochi epic that there was nothing left for them when it ended...New Face Team, anyone?
But a Dream Match changes everything. There are no restrictions to who can be in. No megastory means none of the hang-ups associated with said megastory.
Meaning that for ’02, Eolith had three big, powerful groups clamoring for a shot. The well-established, extremely popular, and irreplaceable lifers. The champions of the past, some of them very popular, who, freed from story limitations, can get in there and kick butt once again. And the new stars, the ones who just got on board in ’00 and ’01, looking for their big break.
Ideally, they should all be in it. That’s exactly what a dream match is...that’s what KOF is. But because of the now-extremely glaring hardware limitations, Eolith had to be very selective.
So Jhun, who never got a chance, is out. And the on-again off-again Kasumi is out, as well as Li. As well as the tragically maligned Sports Team, Bao, and Hinako. Cut after were cut was made. But in the end, one more person had to go.
And somewhere, someone dug up some backstory about how King was “forced” into ’00 and that she “didn’t want to fight anymore”.
Again, I’m not saying it’s justifiable. But there are reasons these seemingly ridiculous decisions get made.
Comments?
A lot of folks keep saying to stop whining about KoF 2k2 cause you haven't played it and blah blah blah, and usually, I really hold true to that as well, but I am appalled that King is not in KoF 2k2, it really is inexcusable, IMO. I think they could've had more characters in the game, so she coulda been in it. Personally, I think anyone who's been in every KoF up to this point should continue to be so. Some disagree with this, but, we all make our own opinions. I will still play 2k2 (if I get the chance!). It'll still have Terry and Mary in it. But it will not be the same without King, a character I have been falling more and more in love with, as much so as I love Terry and Mary (you know what I mean...).
"Someday we'll find it the rainbow connection..." -Kermit The Muppet Movie
Hungry Like the Wolf
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"Re(2):The cloning story" 
